Self Centering Vises: Orange Vise Delta IV 2nd Gen vs Schunk KSC

[empower]

If it isn't first op, why a self centering vise?

i dont have an answer to that, i'm not a proponent of self centering :P
i dont see why there's all the rage for self centering.

 

[BugRobotics]

i dont have an answer to that, i'm not a proponent of self centering [emoji14]
i dont see why there's all the rage for self centering.

I'm new to this form factor but who other than Orange offers the fixed jaw style?

 

[empower]

I'm new to this form factor but who other than Orange offers the fixed jaw style?

nobody that i know of.

 

[Mtndew]

Ok, edumacate me. If it's for a first op, from raw stock, what does it matter if the vise is slightly less precise, or lifts a hair? When it's tight it should be all locked up regardless.

Well if the jaws lift, then you're only clamping on a single point of contact.
And if it lifts when you're using the dovetail part, then you've lost all stability and you're gonna get vibration and chatter.
I have a 1st generation 5th axis vise that lifts and I never could figure out why the dovetail would always chatter.
Made my own dovetail jaws, took out the deflection from jaw lift and now holds parts like they are welded to the table.
Night and day difference.

 

[thesidetalker]

If it isn't first op, why a self centering vise?

I try to come up with a reason to justify one way or another, but you can accomplish the same result with either style with little difference in programming or setup. It really just boils down to preference I suppose.


Only thing I've got is the potential issue running in a cell.

In my 24 pallet cell, several pallets are setup identical with zero-point risers. If I need to throw more pallets at a job, just add more of the same vises, dovetail fixtures, whatever.

I do have some gen1 orange delta vises, but don't get much use lately, at least not on this cell. The adjustable fixed jaw is an interesting concept, but in my case, honestly it is just one more thing to worry about and potentially get wrong from an operator doing a setup. Its not much of a setup though, just making sure the workholding is correct for the specific job. WCS is always the same, pallet to pallet.

A fixed jaw vise like the schunk could work fine. The fixed jaw is the same, vise to vise. But what happens when an operator mistakes the fixed jaw version vise for a centering vise? Same problem. Stock in wrong position. With a centering vise, there's no guesswork there.


Just my .02

 

[BugRobotics]

I do have some gen1 orange delta vises, but don't get much use lately, at least not on this cell.

If you're looking to offload and they are the 4"x7.5" variant I'd buy them. I can't find any that size in stock.

 

[mhajicek]

Well if the jaws lift, then you're only clamping on a single point of contact.
And if it lifts when you're using the dovetail part, then you've lost all stability and you're gonna get vibration and chatter.
I have a 1st generation 5th axis vise that lifts and I never could figure out why the dovetail would always chatter.
Made my own dovetail jaws, took out the deflection from jaw lift and now holds parts like they are welded to the table.
Night and day difference.

I suppose. And I've heard people say that the Lang's lift, but I was using some for six years and never had any chatter issues. I even modified some of their soft jaws to hold quick swap soft jaws of my own make, to use for second ops, and never had any rigidity or location problems.

 

[JMC]

Ok, edumacate me. If it's for a first op, from raw stock, what does it matter if the vise is slightly less precise, or lifts a hair? When it's tight it should be all locked up regardless.

In my experience you lose some rigidity with the jaw lift/play that you see in some makes. We went from having to dovetail parts for other brands to just clamping on it with a Schunk. I'm guessing it's because it gets a better "bite" into the material vs losing some of the bite because the jaw is tipping.
Also, that jaw lift doesn't get better with age. After a few years & a few thousand clamp cycles it gets dramatically worse. And we do tighten with a torque wrench to just below max recommended pressure.

 

[couch]

Advantage of Self Centering is you can program first op stuff to XY center of stock and never need to move the work offset in the machine for any stock size, especially if you’re Z is bottom of stock. Makes first op work dead simple and fast to setup. Also nice on rotaries keeping stock as centered as possible.

Disadvantage of Self Centering is if your part has a datum along a face, your part is now shifting by whatever deviation from nominal on size (width in Y). With a fixed jaw your part is always up against a repeatable surface regardless of part size and your dimensions will, in theory, remain unchanged from that datum. I say in theory because nothings perfect, but it will be more repeatable than being in a self centering vise. You may occasionally need to shift around depending on tolerance, as you would in say a Kurt style singe station.

If you’re probing your parts than none of this matters, if you’re not then it all matters for process reliability.

Advantage of the Orange Gen1 Delta IV vises is you get the best of both worlds with the adjustable fixed jaw. Being able to move the fixed jaw in .062 increments in Y, you can almost always get most fractional barstock sizes right on center, close enough for first op work anyways. The time it takes to loosen the screw in the back of the jaw and move it on the serrations is less time than it’s taken to write this post.

The shape of the jaw carrier wedge keeps the jaws dead on centerline in X too. Have taken soft jaws off to run something different and put them back on without needing to recut the pocket or move work offsets.

 

[BugRobotics]

Placed an order for two of the 4x9s and accessories today. Looking forward to putting them to work. Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[Marvel]

What's the big attraction to self centering vises? I understand it's so your zero can be center of the stock or something? Who cares? guess maybe it makes sense to me if you're carving an indian head or a turbine blade out of an unknown sized blob of material. To me it seems like a fixed jaw vise would be more versatile since it ought to repeat better for 2nd ops.

I just bought one of the stubby orange 4th axis vises. I haven't used it yet but I also like the idea of being able to bias the part toward the back or front of the vise. In my future I'd like to be able to do some operations with short tools along the sides of the part and it seems like the serrated jaws ought to allow a little better access.

I have one of the Orange Vise Delta I use in my 4th axis with a home built 1/2 trunnion style set up, it works great. It's just that added programming step to know where your part is based on jaw positioning in the Y axis when I use the Serra Jaws for a first OP program.

When I program with this set up in my 4th Axis my XYZ Zero is center of my 4th axis platter. I throw my stock in the vise and pick up where the fixed jaw is and make the adjustment in CAMWorks to make sure its in the correct location. Whereas a self centering it would be a step or two quicker.

 

[Marvel]

Placed an order for two of the 4x9s and accessories today. Looking forward to putting them to work. Thanks for everyone's input.

I'm waiting for Orange's self centering vise, I have enough of their products and my whole 4th axis set up is based on their ZPS system and I don't want to start mixing vises and set ups. I originally heard they were to be released in November but exchanged some messages with Eric the other day and he said everything is ready to go less the screw they are waiting on.

 

[JBethell]

I'm waiting for Orange's self centering vise, I have enough of their products and my whole 4th axis set up is based on their ZPS system and I don't want to start mixing vises and set ups. I originally heard they were to be released in November but exchanged some messages with Eric the other day and he said everything is ready to go less the screw they are waiting on.

Do you have good luck with the ZPS system? I always preferred the ball-lock, but only because it APPEARS more rigid. No real-world experience to back that up. In addition, I have a tombstone with 12 of their ball lock receivers, so hopefully they don't completely do away with it.

 

[Marvel]

Do you have good luck with the ZPS system? I always preferred the ball-lock, but only because it APPEARS more rigid. No real-world experience to back that up. In addition, I have a tombstone with 12 of their ball lock receivers, so hopefully they don't completely do away with it.

It's been great! I have no complaints, I use the ZPS system to fixture raw stock occasionally as well.

 

[JBethell]

It's been great! I have no complaints, I use the ZPS system to fixture raw stock occasionally as well.

Oh wow. Do you push the roughing pretty hard on that part? I hope to order some of the centering deltas when they're released, but I'll have to do the ball lock because of the tombstone we have.

 

[Marvel]

Oh wow. Do you push the roughing pretty hard on that part? I hope to order some of the centering deltas when they're released, but I'll have to do the ball lock because of the tombstone we have.

I didn’t and don’t programmed my feeds and speeds any different using the ZPS on stock like this. I did step through this particular part just cause of the set up and my 4th axis at the time was an older/smaller style and I had to raise it up, I’ve since upgraded to a HRT210 and have no worries.

I’ve used the ZPS like this on quite a few parts, it works great. I have a 2nd ZPS plate I mount directly on my table too so if needed I can use it vertically as well.

 

[JBethell]

Awesome, that's great to hear. I'll definitely give it a shot down the road.