Shaper Tooling

[BoxcarPete]

Next step in getting the shaper going after lubrication: tooling.

I got a small pile of old toolholders for a lantern toolpost with my lathe, but no lantern so I never used any of them. I also grabbed a handful of chunkier HSS blanks that I figure I can grind into cutters and hold directly.



Looks like quite a few shop made/modified ones, and a variety of thicknesses from the mid .650s up to the low .660s on most of them. A couple at .700 or so, and the smallest one .488 thick.

Shaper didn't come with a lantern, and the clapper box looks like somebody took their second favorite rotary tool for a spin all around the inside of it:



The diameter doesn't look like it's tapered or bellmouthed, but it's not super round, I measure 1.900±0.005" at various places on both ends.

So before I jump right in and make a lantern, what should I be considering here? Are those Armstrong holders going to be useful to me? How much should I care about close fits anywhere and/or everywhere? Should I just plan to have comfortable clearance everywhere and rely on the pre-load on the lantern to keep everything steady, or should I clean up the clapper for a tighter fit?

Thanks in advance for some direction. I have an "old iron" addiction but no old timers handy to dope-slap me as I muddle my way through .

 

[sfriedberg]

With the possible exception of front rake, stout lathe tools and toolholders are just fine for the shaper. Those two gooseneck holders are especially appropriate for the shaper. The cutoff holders probably won't get much use on the shaper, unless you do very narrow slits.

 

[marka12161]

If it were me, I would probably bore out the clapper box for the day you put a bar in there for internal keyways. Probably don't need to do much of anything for normal shaping operations. Usually there's more clearance in the lantern slot for the tools than you'll have in the clapper box. I assume you'll play around with some scrap at first anyway so if there are any gremlins in there, they will reveal themselves

 

[BoxcarPete]

With the possible exception of front rake, stout lathe tools and toolholders are just fine for the shaper. Those two gooseneck holders are especially appropriate for the shaper. The cutoff holders probably won't get much use on the shaper, unless you do very narrow slits.

Perfect, thanks. Looks like the three at the top are significantly raked, the big one with all the milling marks on it, the goosenecks, and the shop-made ones are neutral or very close to it.

I've already got an idea I want to try for thin slits. Cutting skinny shallow fins in a plastic fountain pen feed, using the automatic stepover between strokes seems ideal because the distance between them isn't critical, they just need to be the right width and at the right depth.

Can you school me on the gooseneck holders real quick? They have three indentations for the knurled thumb screw, which sets them either straight, left, or right. Do I want to run the tool so that it pulls the tool away from this indent holder? It seems like the arc around the center of bending would push the tool deeper into the work and make it dig in. But if I run it the other way, the tool will just push harder into the thumb screw and the gooseneck won't be doing much. Maybe I set the angle with the thumb screw, tighten the tool into the holder, and back the thumbscrew off some limited amount that I want to let it deflect before it acts like a stop?

Edit: Did some homework on this front, looks like my third guess is just the ticket.

If it were me, I would probably bore out the clapper box for the day you put a bar in there for internal keyways. Probably don't need to do much of anything for normal shaping operations. Usually there's more clearance in the lantern slot for the tools than you'll have in the clapper box. I assume you'll play around with some scrap at first anyway so if there are any gremlins in there, they will reveal themselves

Thanks, I figured I would probably need to clean it up unless everyone told me it doesn't matter. Now is the time anyway, before I make the lantern so I can match them up.

It would be much more exciting to start with some high-dollar irreplaceable material, but I think cutting some cast offs to see how everything runs has its own merit

 

[neanderthal mach]

If your having to make a new lantern anyway, then if it were me I'd re-bore that clapper box hole to the next nominal size up. I've seen a few Youtube videos mentioning the importance of having zero side to side play on the clapper but still the ability of an almost friction free swing movement. So I'd fully agree with Marka. Any extra clearance anywhere invites the possibility of vibration and chatter starting. Most definitely something you wouldn't want with a shaper.

I tried finding a picture on Ebay, but none seem to be available right now. Williams and I think maybe Armstrong? made a non goose neck slotted shaper tool holder that allows the cutting tool to be indexed either right or left within the tool holder. They seem to be getting rare now so the prices are usually high. But for my method of working, it's probably my most used tool holder. For heavy roughing cuts then I'd also agree, using large high speed steel tool blanks that fit the lantern slot directly and deleting any separate tool holders would be the way I'd go as well.

 

[BoxcarPete]

If your having to make a new lantern anyway, then if it were me I'd re-bore that clapper box hole to the next nominal size up. I've seen a few Youtube videos mentioning the importance of having zero side to side play on the clapper but still the ability of an almost friction free swing movement. So I'd fully agree with Marka. Any extra clearance anywhere invites the possibility of vibration and chatter starting. Most definitely something you wouldn't want with a shaper.

I tried finding a picture on Ebay, but none seem to be available right now. Williams and I think maybe Armstrong? made a non goose neck slotted shaper tool holder that allows the cutting tool to be indexed either right or left within the tool holder. They seem to be getting rare now so the prices are usually high. But for my method of working, it's probably my most used tool holder. For heavy roughing cuts then I'd also agree, using large high speed steel tool blanks that fit the lantern slot directly and deleting any separate tool holders would be the way I'd go as well.

Well, I was leaning back toward letting it be and seeing how it goes. The trouble is that I'm not quite sure how the clapper box is to be removed.




The round head you see there is caked with both grey and green paint, so it came painted from the factory. Channel locks don't get any purchase on it either since it is hardened. The two holes on top of the clapper are listed as lube points in the manual as well. I don't know if this has ever been removed from the machine, hence the apparent hackjob on the inside for "cleanup" at some point in the past.

It does have the motion you describe, no detectable play side to side and a nice easy swing. I think I'm going to leave it for now.

Walk-in remnant counter at Alro had an 18" bar of 2.5" round 4140 Q&T so in the worst case I can learn from my mistakes, figure out how to take it all apart, figure out what needs to be square to anything that isn't square right now, and I'll have plenty of stock for a second lantern after I know what's going on. Or maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised with the results and have a nicely functioning machine.

 

[gbent]

The hinge pin on some clappers is tapered.

 

[JST]

The hinge pin on some clappers is tapered.

Probably most are, so as to give a way of adjusting the clapper bearing. Some have a nut on the end, some apparently have a threaded end for adjustment.

That one is interesting... without a way to get hold of the pin for adjustment. It seems as if there may be a means to hold it, maybe a slot on the small end under the paint?

If not, is it certain that there are threads? Could the end have been peened over a bit from driving it out in the past? That might make it look threaded.

 

[gbent]

Iirc, the g&e I had the threads on the end were to tighten the taper pin.

For the op: try to simply drive out hinge pin from the threaded end. Use a big hammer, little hammers just rivet it over. To adjust, you will need the proper size taper pin reamer. Ream the housing a little at a time and check fit. If you go to deep you will have to ream the clapper. The taper pin should draw tight in the housing and still allow free movement of the clapper.

 

[BoxcarPete]

Looks like JST got it. Sure looked threaded, even after I hit it with a wire wheel to get all the crusty paint off it looked threaded.



But if you look really close at the left side there, you can see there are no more "threads" beyond the "first" one. So it looks like a hollow pin with its mouth expanded, having inside it another pin, which is mushroomed over. The picture doesn't show it super well, but the finish left by the wire wheel is clearly different between the craggy, mushroomy center and the more evenly expanded rim.

What a mess. I'm really really thinking about just making the lantern to fit its current size. Again, it's not really bellmouthed, just rough on the inside and not super round. And the clapper has an excellent feel to its motion just as neanderthal mach described above.

 

[neanderthal mach]

(uggg) always a joy when some hammer mechanic has been precision adjusting a machine before you got it.

In no way am I anything like even semi knowledgeable about shapers or taper pins, so I'll just regurgitate what I've picked up and how I "think" the clappers with those taper pins are supposed to work and how it's done. Either the clapper itself has to rotate on the taper pin, or the pin rotates within the bores on either side of the clapper. Most or maybe all shaper manufacturers chose to have the clapper rotate on the pin like yours does with the oil holes placed as they are. The way those taper reamed holes are done is the clapper is clamped in place then both the clapper and the clapper box ears on each side get through drilled and then taper reamed to size. At that point it's disassembled and a further very light reaming cut is taken on the clapper to provide the clearance for rotation.

It's a good system except when enough wear takes place all three tapered holes have to be re-reamed a bit larger to remove the wear in the clapper and new pin used to get it tightened back to the general condition when it left the manufacturer. I suspect at one time stocking various sized taper pins and reamers in most shops was much more common than today. It's a bit tough to get your picture orientation figured out and scale the pin by eye for it's large/small ends. But if I've got that figured out correctly, what you showed as a pin with what seems to be an additional pin and the head mushroomed over is probably the end of a bolt in the taper pins large end that was being used while trying to extract the pin. Lots of larger taper pins have either a male thread (less common) or the pin manufacturer supplied female thread used for that extraction. If that's what you have, then yes you now have a huge pita mess.

If my guesses about what your showing are correct and given the torque required to break that bolt, then that pin has to be seated within the taper really tight. Further hammering on the pins small end isn't going to move it and may make things much worse. A heavy preload on the pins small end with something like a hydraulic press and then adding heat to each clapper box ear if your lucky might be enough to help move it. But if the pins small end has already started to mushroom? It's going to have to be step drilled through the whole pin and large enough to relax some of the tension so it can then be pressed or tapped out.

 

[cretedog]

Perhaps 'Dougie' broke the threaded end of tapered the pin off...

A tap with a heavy hammer as Gbent says might be the first step.

Pics of my 24" G&E.

 

[gbent]

It looks to me like the threaded end of the taper pin has been broken off in tension. Someone wanted to tighten the clapper and just started torquing the nut without regard that the taper pin holes on the ram needed to be reamed slightly larger to allow the pin to set deeper. Given the heavy brinnelling of the nut face into the ram and the paint around the pin, I would guess the attrosity was performed prior to the last paint job.

 

[JST]

The nut on the end is the way several I have seen (or in one case repaired) were done.

Grabbing a taper pin to thread the end is "interesting". I ended up reaming and splitting a bushing, which I then grabbed in the chuck of the lathe with the pin in it. It held the pin well enough to turn down the end and thread it.

Make the threads so that in the newly reamed setup, there are some threads down in the hole (not too many, since it needs to be quite securely held). That way, you get at least one re-reaming for wear before you need to make another pin. The shallow taper moves a long way for a tiny bit of reaming, so you want as much adjustment as possible. It is also possible to put washers on if the unthreaded part sticks out, but it looks like a bit of a kludge.

 

[ramsay1]

Hello: My 14" steptoe has a taper pin that the clapper hinges on... Try drifting out with a brass punch from the small end...I use mostly Armstrong lathe tool holders, the carbide variety is better for the tool post on my shaper.... I also have an Armstrong #41, I believe with swivel head that is useful.. Cheers; Ramsay 1

 

[BoxcarPete]

Looks like taper pins typically come with the threaded end on the large size, for either female or male threaded ends. Are clapper boxes opposite of that for tightness adjustment? The large end is .598" (maybe .591 + paint) and the small end is somewhere in the mid-400s. Clapper box is 5" wide, so it looks like a 6" long pin #9 will work, or maybe I should get one even longer for more leeway if I have to clean stuff up. The larger end is only sticking out .290" or so, which means I don't have that much room for opening up the hole.

Last week was pretty slow, but this week I have more "real work" coming through so I might not get to spend as much time on this as I'd like to. Thanks for all the help so far though!

 

[Jim Christie]

One way to help pull the taper pin out might be to make a stepped bushing or set of bushings to just fit over the large end of the the taper pin with a small pilot hole to start and an inch or more longer than the large end is sticking out.
Use the bushing as a guide bushing to drill into the large end with a hand drill or set on a drill press and then follow with a tap drill for perhaps a 5/16" or 3/8" thread and then use the bushing with a 3/8 clearance drill and try pulling the pin with a bolt or cap screw and a washer over the open end of the bushing to help put some tension on the pin while driving it from the small end with a punch and hammer
You could make 3 bushings or just keep opening up the original bushing as you go a long.
If you are lucky you might be able to pull the pin with just the bolt.
Some penetrating oil in advance and perhaps a little heat might help too .
Just warm it up a little if you don't want to get it hot enough to damage the pant .
As usual one has to be careful not to apply excessive force and break something and step back and try something different if it doesn't work .

Jim