What's new
What's new

Shopping for a 5 axis mill: DMG Monoblock 85 vs Okuma MU6300 vs Maatsura MAM 72, vs ?

empower

Titanium
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
You can get a Siemens 840D or a HH TNC 640 with Grob.

I do agree that there spindles are a bit more niche, not really a one size fits all. To be fair though the 16k Grob (206NM) does have way more lowend than the 20k GF (120NM).

If the OP is using 14+" tools and cutting steel the HSK100 is almost mandatory, only really drawback is you're capped at 13k rpm which can slow you down a bit in aluminum, but you can take bigger cuts so YMMV.
ya, i know you can get it with HH, but i'd never do that with an MTB that only does several of those machines a year, they wont have the integration down as well as an MTB that deals with mainly that control.
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
ya, i know you can get it with HH, but i'd never do that with an MTB that only does several of those machines a year, they wont have the integration down as well as an MTB that deals with mainly that control.
I understand that. The 840D is definitely no slouch of a control, but it's mostly personal preference between the two.

You said you had a 600k quote for a G350, you remember what options where on that?
 

empower

Titanium
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
I understand that. The 840D is definitely no slouch of a control, but it's mostly personal preference between the two.

You said you had a 600k quote for a G350, you remember what options where on that?
around 120 tools IIRC, TSC, probing etc. reasonably well loaded.
and ya, nothing wrong with siemens control at all, just not my pref.
 

ToolmakerTH

Plastic
Joined
Jul 19, 2022
No I haven't other than a cursory review of their website. Do you have an idea of what the cost would be relative to the machines we are looking at? It would be ideal to stay in the same ballpark.
I got a quote from Grob not long ago for G350 with 10 pallets and 16K HSK63 spindle and pretty loaded options about 750K euro. Only option i would add more is bigger tool capacity. The quote I got was for only 60 tools. It will vary depending on your location though as I am not in the US.
 

JDMT

Plastic
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
So you said nothing negative about the one Doosan you have already...only the Haas's. So are these parts to complicated to look at a Doosan 5axis? More same brand machines= better tech support.
The Doosan machine has been pretty solid. We have replaced one spindle in in (mostly our fault). The replacement spindle cost $50,000 and cost us 5 days of down time while they did the work. However they didn't put the high pressure coolant line back in the right place, so after two weeks of rubbing against a sharp sheet metal edge, it ruptured and made a big mess. Replacing that part cost us another 4 days of down time mostly going back and forth with the service techs as they tried to find the replacement part. I eventually got tired of that routine, pulled the hose out (pulling a fishing wire through with it) and took it to a tractor dealership to get a replacement made and installed it.

There have been a few other minor issues that we have been mostly able to work around/resolve but just enough little quirks that I don't fancy the idea of dealing with the break-in process for another one. Examples include: the tool setter is a on a swing arm and that solenoid burned out, the track of the side door that we use to load through while running lights out has to be religiously cleaned on a daily basis to avoid jamming, I can't check tool length of the my face mill on the tool setter without chipping the inserts (we and the techs have tried everything we can think of to change this, but we can't change the spindle speed when it checks and that seems to be the main difference between that machine and the Haas where we are successful with the same process).

We also really dislike the Fanuc control. Uploading programs over the network is a pain; integrating our robot was not simple; figuring out how to engrave serial sequential serial numbers has continued to elude us, engraving part measurements after probing was a difficult ordeal.

Its great now that I is working, but I am more than willing to try something new.
 

JDMT

Plastic
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
Sincere thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I really should have broached this question sooner when I had more time to look into some of the awesome machines you all mentioned.

We have decided to go with the DMG. We will be getting the machine by the end of the year and the PH cell middle of 2023. I will try to circle back with more specs in a day or two. Now I have a lot of work to do clearing a space on the floor and getting ready to tear out the pad and pour a foundation for this unit. Wish me luck!
 

5 axis Fidia guy

Stainless
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Location
Wisconsin
We have a Hermle C42 with pallet changer and that would be a perfect fit. The Heidenhain has the MT turning option that would be perfect for your large bores. The Okuma with the OSP control is a puke compared to the Heidenhain 640 control. I watched the Okuma do a test cut for us and it was laughable for the simultanious 5x work.
 

empower

Titanium
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Sincere thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I really should have broached this question sooner when I had more time to look into some of the awesome machines you all mentioned.

We have decided to go with the DMG. We will be getting the machine by the end of the year and the PH cell middle of 2023. I will try to circle back with more specs in a day or two. Now I have a lot of work to do clearing a space on the floor and getting ready to tear out the pad and pour a foundation for this unit. Wish me luck!
may the machine gods have mercy on your soul!
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Location
Illinois
I've noticed a lot more requests just this year for HSK100 tooling. Year before maybe 1 or 2 requests. This year at least tenfold. I wonder why, bigger stuff being made in the states?
 

PracticalAE

Plastic
Joined
Jun 13, 2022
I've noticed a lot more requests just this year for HSK100 tooling. Year before maybe 1 or 2 requests. This year at least tenfold. I wonder why, bigger stuff being made in the states?
It seems like there has been a shift in the past couple of years. The last place I worked made custom tooling for (moslty) the automotive industry. The only tooling that was made with a 63 was going on the legacy lines. All of the new tooling being designed for the new lines utilized 100.
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
I've noticed a lot more requests just this year for HSK100 tooling. Year before maybe 1 or 2 requests. This year at least tenfold. I wonder why, bigger stuff being made in the states?
More and more MTB's are offering large taper high speed spindles geared towards the aero and auto industry. If you're making 500k of something why get a 20k hsk63 when you can get a 20k hsk100? You get all the speed but with 5x more rigidity, win win if you're Ford or Chevy setting up a new production line. Not to mention you can run 15"+ long tools with way less downside compared to its smaller brother.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Location
Illinois
More and more MTB's are offering large taper high speed spindles geared towards the aero and auto industry. If you're making 500k of something why get a 20k hsk63 when you can get a 20k hsk100? You get all the speed but with 5x more rigidity, win win if you're Ford or Chevy setting up a new production line. Not to mention you can run 15"+ long tools with way less downside compared to its smaller brother.
Makes sense. Looks like I need to expand my HSK100 offerings quicker than I thought.

Going to IMTS you tend to think that HSK100 isn't very popular, but then if you really think about the insane shipping costs to bring an HSk100 machine to Chicago you realize why.
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
Going to IMTS you tend to think that HSK100 isn't very popular, but then if you really think about the insane shipping costs to bring an HSk100 machine to Chicago you realize why.
I may be alone here... but I thought IMTS this year was kinda disappointing, don't get me wrong there was a lot of cool stuff. But many of the big players didn't show this year and several of the ones that did show had little to no machines on display. Not that I'm in the market for a horizontal right now but it would have been nice to see a a61nx in person...
 

daringwilliams

Plastic
Joined
Mar 7, 2019
Market is shifted, they get WAY more exposure with factory tours, viral video exposure etc that don't have capital costs (can still write off), can do demo days where people come to you, on their own time

The old model of machine tool magazines also stopped great returns at some point. The majority of machine tool sales aren't to IMTS participants, large OEM machine tool purchasers just dont need IMTS to understand the available market

I got the greenlight to proceed with GROB
 

empower

Titanium
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Market is shifted, they get WAY more exposure with factory tours, viral video exposure etc that don't have capital costs (can still write off), can do demo days where people come to you, on their own time

The old model of machine tool magazines also stopped great returns at some point. The majority of machine tool sales aren't to IMTS participants, large OEM machine tool purchasers just dont need IMTS to understand the available market

I got the greenlight to proceed with GROB
i think you'll be happy with GROB!
 

Milling man

Cast Iron
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Location
Moscow, Russia
Yes, GROB and HELLER are machines of a "slightly" different class than DMG. In a good way.
If a topstarter can get a proper GROB with a million bucks pallet storage, that would be awesome!
Perhaps I would also remember Makino - it seems to me that this is some kind of Japanese Heller :)
 

boosted

Stainless
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Location
Portland, OR
Of any of the machines mentioned, I’d opt for a Makino. Then one can be assured that parts for either the machine or controls will still be easily obtained when the machine is 15 or so years old.

Which Makino?

I like the brand, but outside of the MAG machines, their five axis options underwhelm. Machines like the A500Z have extremely limiting kinematics, and only fit specific product lines. Pretty outside the scope of this conversation IMHO.
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
Which Makino?

I like the brand, but outside of the MAG machines, their five axis options underwhelm. Machines like the A500Z have extremely limiting kinematics, and only fit specific product lines. Pretty outside the scope of this conversation IMHO.
I think the only vertical 5 axis from makino worth considering is the DA300, but that won't fit the OP's part requirements.

In the horizontal 5 axis space (Medium to Large capacity) there are a lot of options to choose from. Grob, Heller, Starrag Heckert, Makino, Modig, a far distant DMG.
 








 
Top