Shops that can make Olympic bars in the USA?

[Orange Vise]

That's funny, because I seem to recall 4140 doesn't have enough carbon to HT to 200ksi: MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource

I can't open that link because it's a dynamic page specific to your cookies/browser session, but I did search "4140" on Matweb:

>> 23. AISI 4140 Steel, normalized at 870°C (1600°F), reheated to 845°C (1550°F), oil quenched, 205°C (400°F) temper , 25 mm (1 in.) round

Ultimate Tensile = 285ksi
Yield = 251ksi

In contrast >> 29. AISI 4140 Steel, normalized at 870°C (1600°F), reheated to 845°C (1550°F), oil quenched, 540°C (1000°F) temper , 25 mm (1 in.) round

Ultimate Tensile = 167ksi
Yield = 152ksi

-Sol

 

[Orange Vise]

Any shop that does work for customers, based on their prints, will not sell you another customer's product, unless they are disreputable.

+1,000,000

-Sol

 

[Royldean]

I think your solution is this:

Instead of trying to find the "needle in a haystack" shop that can make these bars with no engineering information, no print, etc. (and also willing to sell out their other customers for you), why don't you invest $5k-$10k and hire an outside engineering firm to design the bar to your specifications? They'll do the heavy lifting (*RIM-SHOT*), and then you can take the print to ANY job shop or production shop in the country (or world, for that matter) and have them make your product? Have them bid against each other...

 

[Orange Vise]

^It was my understanding that tensile strength refers to the amount of pressure before the bar will break, while yield strength refers to the ability of the bar to "snap back into shape" and resist being bent permanently. A high yield and tensile would mean the bar won't bend permanently or break easily. Is that wrong?

It's not wrong, it's just incomplete.

A high tensile material may be able to withstand greater forces under constant load, but its brittleness may make it susceptible to breakage in the event of a sudden impact (like dropping the bar, a constant occurrence).

I'm no metallurgist so perhaps someone else here can explain it in more detail.

-Sol

 

[Limy Sami]

I've just done a few numbers

28mm dia bar x 87'' long = 23.54 lbs

50 off bars = 1177lbs

But you have to buy 12ft's (unless you can get them supplied cut -which you will pay pro, but not always as the full rate??)

So a 144'' bar x 28mm dia weighs 38.97lbs

50 off bars = 1948.5 lbs


All of which means ;- At under 1 US ton per batch of 50, a jobshop's ''buying power'' isn't high enough to push the price down much - if any.

 

[ryanjm]

Any shop that does work for customers, based on their prints, will not sell you another customer's product, unless they are disreputable.

Definitely wouldn't be looking to steal someone else's design. I would be looking for a shop that already has a design of their own which they re-sell to equipment companies. It's very common in this industry.

 

[Perry Harrington]

I can't open that link because it's a dynamic page specific to your cookies/browser session, but I did search "4140" on Matweb:

>> 23. AISI 4140 Steel, normalized at 870°C (1600°F), reheated to 845°C (1550°F), oil quenched, 205°C (400°F) temper , 25 mm (1 in.) round

Ultimate Tensile = 285ksi
Yield = 251ksi

In contrast >> 29. AISI 4140 Steel, normalized at 870°C (1600°F), reheated to 845°C (1550°F), oil quenched, 540°C (1000°F) temper , 25 mm (1 in.) round

Ultimate Tensile = 167ksi
Yield = 152ksi

-Sol

Indeed, HRC55 in 4140 will net 285ksi tensile, I guess poo, poo on me for not learning how to use their site.

 

[Limy Sami]

Definitely wouldn't be looking to steal someone else's design. I would be looking for a shop that already has a design of their own which they re-sell to equipment companies. It's very common in this industry.

I'm not saying you're wrong in anyway, but knowing how some shops work, theres everychance ''their designs'' were pirated from a customer, ..... could be a reason to come up with your own design - I suggest you work with a shop on it - a seemingly simple (to a none machinist) feature, can be expensive to produce.

That way the lawyers won't be so ready to pounce;-)

 

[Joe Miranda]

ryanjm - I truly wish you the best but the numbers and explanation I gave you is a real case scenario. $500 per bar is realistic. Just for the heat treating and the material you are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of $125 per bar for the numbers you are looking at. This is just a reality check ryan. Those numbers are just not enough to make it worth someone's while. Keep us posted on your progress and let this be a learning experience for all of us.

4140 will work for what you are doing. That at least get's you one step closer in your research. But those guys that say they are selling made in America for $270 is just plain hogwash - unless they are not using 4140 and maybe they are not heat treating the bars. If you use low carbon steel such as 1018 or 1020 - the knurling will go 2 or 3 times faster and it will be way more consistent so that you will have less re-work. Trying to get a closed diamond knurl on 4140 over the length of an Olympic bar is no small feat - even when you get the process down pretty good. But if you go with the low carbon steel you can't heat treat it. So what you end up with are bars that bend (and don't regain their shape). Remember - all that heat treating does to steel is it gives it a memory. It helps the steel to know what shape to go back to after a load is applied. It is still going to bend under a load.

But anyhow - best wishes - let us know how things turn out. Joe

 

[John Garner]

matt --

Dollars to doughnuts (which is getting right close to even-money these days), I'd fail to fracture your one-inch bar of 4140 by hand.

John

 

[gbent]

Google world record dead lift and look at the abuse these bars take. I think they still use the same 1 1/8 diameter bar, even with 1100 lbs. I wouldn't want to do that with chinese steel and a bonfire heat treat.

 

[Joe Miranda]

Ivanko makes their bars out of stainless, heat treat the bars to achieve 218,000 psi and then straighten them to .001. That way they don't have to worry about any additional coating like chrome or black oxide and they are capable of handling the most severe use like they would see in competition.

Most non-competitve lifters will settle for a "safe" bar (ie 4140 heat treated and tempered) that is gonna give them good overall life and be able to handle under 500 lbs and won't rust too bad in their unheated barn or garage.

ryanjm two questions; 1) what is your target market and 2) are you looking for just the bar - and your going to supply the ends? The bar without the ends is gonna be way cheaper but then you need a supplier for the ends. I'm sure you can find someone here that will work with you to achieve your goal if you help us to know more specifically what you're after.

 

[grade]

Its really interesting to see.I agree with you . I am looking a shop of such kind.Thanks for sharing this.
Please keep us updated.

 

[Sandarpan]

I know this is old but any updates on how it went? I am trying to find a steel for an Olympic bar, although for personal use.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

The points others make about the effort to come up with a bar that meets your spec are spot on. You could make a bar that has the ksi strength, and the physical dimensions, but it might fail in practice.

Annealed steel is softer than heat-treated, and has lower ultimate and yield strength. When you heat treat a product to increase hardness or strength (they generally a both increased when you do a standard HT) you can end up with a very strong, very hard part. But the part is also brittle. This means that when the bar approaches its yield point, it doesn't bend, it breaks. Shatters, actually. It has no toughness. Yielding parts with really sharp edges, potentially propelled at high velocity. So heat treatment usually includes a tempering process. The steel is heated up (to a temperature less than that used in hardening it), "Soaked" for a while, then quenched again. This lowers the ultimate and yield strength, but most importantly makes the part less brittle. As in tolerant of bending without breaking.

Different steels need different HT processes, and the process for a given steel can be tailored to optimize strength vs toughness. Your competitor, Rogue, shows the "Ohio Bar" that uses a 190ksi steel and is made using a CNC process (look at the website under Ohio Bar, and you'll see a Haas CNC machine that they purport to use). BTW, the retail price (metals depot) for a 6 foot 1-1/8 inch bar of 4140 is over $90. And that doesn't include the steel you'd buy for the bar ends. 4 feet of 3" 4140 bar is about $240. I suspect you'd use cheaper steel for the bar ends (they're thicker in cross-section) but even so you'd have to heat treatable steel (they're a wear point) and HT them.

The problem is that these bars are not very sophisticated in basic design (the bushings and such are pretty simple), and you are competing against guys with massive volume (e.g. Rogue). My son is a Level 1 Crossfit trainer, and I just shake my head at the volume of Rogue stuff he's bought. Since the basics are easy, it's the important details (steel selection, cost, HT, machining process, capital investment in tools, programmer skill, operator skill) that matter on price. And you have firms that have sold thousands of these bars and have those details fine-tuned. Sorry to bump their SEO score, but folks here will be interested: http://www.roguefitness.com/the-ohio-bar

If you were a machine-shop/engineering genius, you might have some insight that let you come up with a lower-cost, higher-quality product. Maybe you'd figure out how to make a better product with cheaper steel or something. Otherwise, I think you may be in the "I want to market my own brand of cola drink. It has to have X% of sugar, be brown, and have a cola taste that matches or beats Coke. And I want to manufacture it for about half of what Coke costs to make". I hope I'm being realistic and not too negative. I do wish you luck.

Folks asked about what an Olympic bar is. Pic below.

 

[Sandarpan]

The points others make about the effort to come up with a bar that meets your spec are spot on. You could make a bar that has the ksi strength, and the physical dimensions, but it might fail in practice.

Annealed steel is softer than heat-treated, and has lower ultimate and yield strength. When you heat treat a product to increase hardness or strength (they generally a both increased when you do a standard HT) you can end up with a very strong, very hard part. But the part is also brittle. This means that when the bar approaches its yield point, it doesn't bend, it breaks. Shatters, actually. It has no toughness. Yielding parts with really sharp edges, potentially propelled at high velocity. So heat treatment usually includes a tempering process. The steel is heated up (to a temperature less than that used in hardening it), "Soaked" for a while, then quenched again. This lowers the ultimate and yield strength, but most importantly makes the part less brittle. As in tolerant of bending without breaking.

Different steels need different HT processes, and the process for a given steel can be tailored to optimize strength vs toughness. Your competitor, Rogue, shows the "Ohio Bar" that uses a 190ksi steel and is made using a CNC process (look at the website under Ohio Bar, and you'll see a Haas CNC machine that they purport to use).

The problem is that these bars are not very sophisticated in basic design (the bushings and such are pretty simple), and you are competing against guys with massive volume (e.g. Rogue). My son is a Level 1 Crossfit trainer, and I just shake my head at the volume of Rogue stuff he's bought. Since the basics are easy, it's the important details (steel selection, cost, HT, machining process, capital investment in tools, programmer skill, operator skill) that matter on price. And you have firms that have sold thousands of these bars and have those details fine-tuned.

If you were a machine-shop/engineering genius, you might have some insight that let you come up with a lower-cost, higher-quality product. Maybe you'd figure out how to make a better product with cheaper steel or something. Otherwise, I think you may be in the "I want to market my own brand of cola drink. It has to have X% of sugar, be brown, and have a cola taste that matches or beats Coke. And I want to manufacture it for about half of what Coke costs to make". I hope I'm being realistic and not too negative. I do wish you luck.

Folks asked about what an Olympic bar is. Pic below.

But can you tell me one thing? Can the same steel be treated to say 200000 psi yet have different levels of brittleness?

 

[jrmach]

I agree with you here. I need a shop that has already made these, or is already making these and selling them to other companies or in small quantities on their own. Of course, I'm looking for a continuing business relationship beyond the initial 50 bars. I know that the companies I'm competing with did not design their bars from scratch, they simply found a shop that already knows how to make these or is already producing them, and just buy them and brand them as their own. I guess that's what I'm trying to find since it's clearly too much prep/design work to do this with a shop that doesn't have experience in this and/or already make bars.

Just to get this straight......
So what you really want is is a disreputable shop that makes these for someone else to,(that they paid for all the R&D),make them on the side(secretly)and put your name on it ???
And still be Made In USA ????

Shit,got sucked in old thread.
Yeah,what happened??Who pooch did you screw
ryanjm

 

[Orange Vise]

But can you tell me one thing? Can the same steel be treated to say 200000 psi yet have different levels of brittleness?

Definitely.

"Brittleness" is just a generalized term used to describe various aspects of ductility and toughness.

Hardness and strength are tightly correlated and easy to predict and test. Toughness is far more involved and requires very specific material selection and heat treatment - not for the faint of heart, and certainly not for the OP who only wants 50 of these things made. You can easily have two parts with similar strength but much different toughness values.

 

[WizardOfBoz]

Agree with Orange Vise, kind of. If you heat treat to the maximum strength (typically also the maximum hardness), you are usually at the point of maximum brittleness. That is, the part may be strong (can take a high force), but it takes very little energy to break (as in they deform less before breaking). Ductility (ability to draw into a wire) and malleability (ability to hammer into a sheet) are related, but different terms. Nothing brittle is easily drawn or hammered, but not all non-brittle stuff can be drawn or hammered.

Once you heat treat to get the desired hardness, then you "draw" the temper. Heat to a lower temperature, soak (leave the part in the oven) a bit at that temperature, then quench or air-cool, depending on the steel. For a given initial hardness and strength, there is usually a relation (shown on graphs) for how the hardness decreases with increasing draw temperature. Conversely, another relationship (shown on a graph) shows percent strain at fracture (that is, one indication of toughness) increasing with increasing draw temperature. They are related. For a given final tensile strength, there is generally a maximum in the percent strain. You can get worse, but not better.

So while you have some freedom about how much toughness you want for a given tensile strength, there is a maximum. Not complete freedom.

 

[90LX_Notch]

I might be fuzzy on this. It's close to 30 years since I competed.

Olympic bars are 1 1/16 dia. and do not include a knurled mid section.

Powerlifting bars are 1 1/8 dia. and include a knurled midsection so the bar doesn't slip during a squat. I remember the length being seven and a half feet.

I seem to remember the York literature stating that the bearing was sintered bronze.