Should a machinist do quoting for the owner of company?

[Palmeruski]

So a quick overview. I work for a smaller size fab shop with around 15 employees on the floor and I run the machining department myself as I am the only machinist there. Most of what I machine is for big jobs that are currently going on in the shop but we take in outside work as well to keep our CNC Mill going. Im very happy with all this but for outside work they ask me to do the quoting wich I never done before in my 20 years in the field. Then when I am wrong I get yelled at and all that and not happy doing this part because at this point I should just have my own place. What is everyone's view on this? I do get paid a decent wage but I can go almost anywhere and make same or more and not do quoting. Any responses are helpful thank you.

 

[Philabuster]

The boss asking you for an estimate on how long the job will take is reasonable, but that's about it.

At our place, I do machining work for my internal customers. The customers ask me for an estimate in the number of hours a job takes and estimated completion date, but I have no clue how much the total job will cost. Things like material, tooling, outside processes, etc, are out of my scope.

 

[jccaclimber]

Do you have any dreams of owning your own place? If so it’s free practice.
As for getting it wrong, if you get punished when it takes too long, but not when you are early, just start padding your estimates.

 

[sfriedberg]

Better to do a few quotes for your boss and get it wrong than to start your own shop and get your first few quotes wrong, I think.

It's not all that unusual for "the boss" to be a non-machinist. Somebody in the shop has to do the quoting. "Shop foreman." "Floor supervisor." "Senior machinist." "Old Joe."

If I were in your shoes, I would work with the boss, sales, purchasing, and possibly other departments to figure out where the quotes went wrong. Treat that as a learning experience, and give them more accurate, or at least more conservative, quotes in the future. If you do decide to strike out on your own, this would be valuable to you.

Philabuster's point is good, too. If you don't have insight into a bunch of stuff, tell "the boss" you can only be accurate about the stuff that you'd work on. Tooling development, outside materials and services, etc., are not something you've done, so you can't give accurate estimates. Do they want you on the phone calling vendors to get price quotes and lead times, or do they want you making parts? Maybe they should put two or three of you on a team that does outside quotes, with a purchasing agent, among others.

 

[Palmeruski]

Thank you for the replies. I was just wondering if it was way out of line is all. But it is not easy to do quoting. Especially since all work is one offs and prototype work.

 

[Palmeruski]

Do you have any dreams of owning your own place? If so it’s free practice.
As for getting it wrong, if you get punished when it takes too long, but not when you are early, just start padding your estimates.

Never thought of it like this.

 

[Palmeruski]

Better to do a few quotes for your boss and get it wrong than to start your own shop and get your first few quotes wrong, I think.

It's not all that unusual for "the boss" to be a non-machinist. Somebody in the shop has to do the quoting. "Shop foreman." "Floor supervisor." "Senior machinist." "Old Joe."

If I were in your shoes, I would work with the boss, sales, purchasing, and possibly other departments to figure out where the quotes went wrong. Treat that as a learning experience, and give them more accurate, or at least more conservative, quotes in the future. If you do decide to strike out on your own, this would be valuable to you.

Philabuster's point is good, too. If you don't have insight into a bunch of stuff, tell "the boss" you can only be accurate about the stuff that you'd work on. Tooling development, outside materials and services, etc., are not something you've done, so you can't give accurate estimates. Do they want you on the phone calling vendors to get price quotes and lead times, or do they want you making parts? Maybe they should put two or three of you on a team that does outside quotes, with a purchasing agent, among others.

Yes just asking for Programming time run time and tooling cost.

 

[DDoug]

Yes just asking for Programming time run time and tooling cost.

Sounds like you need feedback on how your estimates actually worked when the job went thru the shop, so you can re-adjust your calculations.
Right now, your a "stepper motor drive" and you need to be a "Servo motor drive".

 

[just Dave]

Early on I worked for a guy that asked me what I thought on some part run times. When I killed it he gave me a bonus. It was great experience for life. Estimation is wide range skill that will serve you well. Suck it up every bit of it and hone your skills.

 

[hanermo]

All good replies- !

But they don´t seem to take into account the real, real, real cost of having your own shop.
20.000 $ for shelves.
20-30.000 for a gantry crane.
Pay for the accountant.
Get the web stuff working.
30.000 $ for materials handling and finishing.
Graphics on shop walls - 20k.
20.000 $/yr, every year, insurance.
Hazmat fees.
Electricity.
Installing 200 kW of electricity (200.000 $ easily right there).
20k tooling, 20k inspection and gaging, 20k inserts and various.
20-40k$ for workers safety equipment, mandated.

How many meetings and paperwork for zoning and hazmat and finishing and ac stuff ?
Labour H&S stuff ?

And only now, 500-700-800 k$ later, add in all the VMCs, auto-saws, turning centers you will need ?
For 15 guys, say 15 machines.
This is very optimistic.
You really need much more.
1.3M$, best case.

So about 2.2 M$ all-in, base costs, plus the wages for the 10 months you spend fixing issues while product is still not going out.
Another 600k$, +/-.

Oh, the place, 500k$ for first years lease and security, 200k$ to fix it and set it up.
700k$.

So about 3.5M$ best case, for someone really clued-in on absolutely everything that is expensive and or hard to do.

I am pointing out that almost-all that is hard and expensive in a machine shop has nothing to do with machining and producing stuff.
Most experienced machinists can quite easily learn any of the 20-odd silly things that are necessary --
but it takes lots of hours --
and they are not producing parts at the same time.

 

[kenton]

All good replies- !

But they don´t seem to take into account the real, real, real cost of having your own shop.
20.000 $ for shelves.
20-30.000 for a gantry crane.
Pay for the accountant.
Get the web stuff working.
30.000 $ for materials handling and finishing.
Graphics on shop walls - 20k.
20.000 $/yr, every year, insurance.
Hazmat fees.
Electricity.
Installing 200 kW of electricity (200.000 $ easily right there).
20k tooling, 20k inspection and gaging, 20k inserts and various.
20-40k$ for workers safety equipment, mandated.

How many meetings and paperwork for zoning and hazmat and finishing and ac stuff ?
Labour H&S stuff ?

And only now, 500-700-800 k$ later, add in all the VMCs, auto-saws, turning centers you will need ?
For 15 guys, say 15 machines.
This is very optimistic.
You really need much more.
1.3M$, best case.

So about 2.2 M$ all-in, base costs, plus the wages for the 10 months you spend fixing issues while product is still not going out.
Another 600k$, +/-.

Oh, the place, 500k$ for first years lease and security, 200k$ to fix it and set it up.
700k$.

So about 3.5M$ best case, for someone really clued-in on absolutely everything that is expensive and or hard to do.

I am pointing out that almost-all that is hard and expensive in a machine shop has nothing to do with machining and producing stuff.
Most experienced machinists can quite easily learn any of the 20-odd silly things that are necessary --
but it takes lots of hours --
and they are not producing parts at the same time.

From post #1 first 2 sentences:
So a quick overview. I work for a smaller size fab shop with around 15 employees on the floor and I run the machining department myself as I am the only machinist there.

I don't think they have 15 machines just for OP.

 

[DavidScott]

All good replies- !

But they don´t seem to take into account the real, real, real cost of having your own shop.
20.000 $ for shelves.
20-30.000 for a gantry crane.
Pay for the accountant.
Get the web stuff working.
30.000 $ for materials handling and finishing.
Graphics on shop walls - 20k.
20.000 $/yr, every year, insurance.
Hazmat fees.
Electricity.
Installing 200 kW of electricity (200.000 $ easily right there).
20k tooling, 20k inspection and gaging, 20k inserts and various.
20-40k$ for workers safety equipment, mandated.

How many meetings and paperwork for zoning and hazmat and finishing and ac stuff ?
Labour H&S stuff ?

And only now, 500-700-800 k$ later, add in all the VMCs, auto-saws, turning centers you will need ?
For 15 guys, say 15 machines.
This is very optimistic.
You really need much more.
1.3M$, best case.

So about 2.2 M$ all-in, base costs, plus the wages for the 10 months you spend fixing issues while product is still not going out.
Another 600k$, +/-.

Oh, the place, 500k$ for first years lease and security, 200k$ to fix it and set it up.
700k$.

So about 3.5M$ best case, for someone really clued-in on absolutely everything that is expensive and or hard to do.

I am pointing out that almost-all that is hard and expensive in a machine shop has nothing to do with machining and producing stuff.
Most experienced machinists can quite easily learn any of the 20-odd silly things that are necessary --
but it takes lots of hours --
and they are not producing parts at the same time.

Absolutely everything you wrote has nothing to do with the reality of starting a small shop.

To the Op, what your boss is asking is not out of the question, I used to do it as shop lead/supervisor. I was no good at it but I learned. After a few quotes, I learned to just guess at it and found that was more accurate. Definitely don't under quote.

 

[CarbideBob]

Why did you get it wrong?
You are the shop floor wizard, we trusted you and now we are all in the shithouse.
Do not know how those in power above respond.

 

[Modelman]

Quote more conservatively. It's no skin off your nose if you don't win the work, and if the boss notices just remind him about all the sh*t he gave you when you under quoted. Meanwhile, as others have said, use it as an opportunity to hone your quoting skills on someone else's nickle.

Dennis

 

[Fishcakes]

I've been quoting machined parts for about a year now, machining for two. Engineer for a few years beforehand. I'm by no means an expert but it sounds like I'm in a similar position with regards to quoting experience, although without the machining experience.

We are mostly doing one offs and it does take a while to get the hang of it but it eventaully just clicked for me. The boss here had been doing quotes originally though so I was able to bounce my estimates off of him to verify. This usually avoids the yelling for me atleast.

Getting a good spreadsheet together helped me immensely. Estimate every operation, I often times chuck the 3D models into the CAM software to get a rough idea of roughing the part out. I usually add a bit of fat to every job also, we always think things will take less time then they end up taking. If I'm really stuck I'll get Xometry to give me an idea, although that can be all over the place.

 

[triumph406]

All good replies- !

But they don´t seem to take into account the real, real, real cost of having your own shop.
20.000 $ for shelves.
20-30.000 for a gantry crane.
Pay for the accountant.
Get the web stuff working.
30.000 $ for materials handling and finishing.
Graphics on shop walls - 20k.
20.000 $/yr, every year, insurance.
Hazmat fees.
Electricity.
Installing 200 kW of electricity (200.000 $ easily right there).
20k tooling, 20k inspection and gaging, 20k inserts and various.
20-40k$ for workers safety equipment, mandated.

How many meetings and paperwork for zoning and hazmat and finishing and ac stuff ?
Labour H&S stuff ?

And only now, 500-700-800 k$ later, add in all the VMCs, auto-saws, turning centers you will need ?
For 15 guys, say 15 machines.
This is very optimistic.
You really need much more.
1.3M$, best case.

So about 2.2 M$ all-in, base costs, plus the wages for the 10 months you spend fixing issues while product is still not going out.
Another 600k$, +/-.

Oh, the place, 500k$ for first years lease and security, 200k$ to fix it and set it up.
700k$.

So about 3.5M$ best case, for someone really clued-in on absolutely everything that is expensive and or hard to do.

I am pointing out that almost-all that is hard and expensive in a machine shop has nothing to do with machining and producing stuff.
Most experienced machinists can quite easily learn any of the 20-odd silly things that are necessary --
but it takes lots of hours --
and they are not producing parts at the same time.

Your insane

 

[triumph406]

Then when I am wrong I get yelled at and all that and not happy doing this part because at this point I should just have my own place.

Get your own shop, then you can yell at yourself when you screw up quotes, and parts etc etc

 

[AARONT]

I don't think it's unreasonable they asked you to do some quotes. If it starts being a regular thing I would ask for a pay bump. Quoting work is a PITA when you start but it does get better. It helped me to learn how to think of new and better ways to do work as well as to come up with new processes much quicker. The other thing I learned was just because I can do something in a certain amount of time doesn't mean that's how much time you should quote. I add 15-20% to the time because running 100% efficiency is not easily doable for every job.

You learn a lot about how you you do setups and run jobs by quoting the work if you pay attention and time yourself through parts of the process. For example, how long does it take to program, then how long to grab tools and set them up, how much longer does it take to run through the program then it actually takes to run it at 100%.

If you end up having to quote work other people do make sure you quote it at what you think the average person in the shop can do it in. Not how fast you can do it. I got burned on that a lot in the beginning.

 

[eKretz]

Tell your boss you're new to estimation and you can't do perfect right from the jump. You're trying and will do better. There's a learning curve to everything. You absolutely need feedback on your estimate to learn from. You need to see the hours actually taken on the job vs what you thought it would take. Also there needs to be a system where you can easily look up information from old jobs and see trends. When I started I always forgot to add time for cleanup which burned me on short and/or single item jobs. And also as Aaron said, be sure to add some time to the total that you think it will take, especially if you're the fastest guy in the shop. On simple jobs I might add 10% to the time I figured. On more complex ones maybe up to 50%.

 

[DDoug]

If your going to come up with an innovative way of doing some job (and your estimate reflects that) you might want to make a note
to the planner about it, or they will plan it thru the shop the "old slow way" and your estimate will be wrong.