Single phase to 3 phase for novice. Help!

[Newman109]

Thank you, to all who replied. I'm starting to think my best option is a RPC. My friends' is so loud, makes you want to wear ear plugs. I figure his must be shot. I looked at the website of North America phase converters earlier. I'll talk to them. I'm afraid Phase Perfect is for now financially not in the cards. I appreciate any advice.

I got a 3 hp mill about 8 years ago and knew little about 3 phase other than that I would need it to run the mill. I foolishly bought an allegedly 5 hp RPC from a vendor on eBay. I was soon sorry when I started it up.

They had used a 3,450 rpm motor that was obviously undersized and would barely power the mill. It had no motor plate on the motor so there was no way to tell.

That motor screamed like a banshee! It must have been more than 100 db. It was literally unbearable.

I started out checking the schematics for RPC's that are available here in this section of the website and decided that the best way to go was to make my own RPC. I started with a lovely old 5 hp Boston Gear 1,750 rpm motor that you can barely hear when it's running. That was $100 on eBay, delivered.

Fast forward to the acquisition of a potential relay, some starting and running caps and a case to put them in and, after welding up a stand and doing some wiring, I had a nice. quiet 5hp RPC. After it was working, I sold the eBay RPC cheap with full disclosure and life was good. My Webb mill makes twice the noise of the RPC.

The OP's situation is ideal for a cheap home-built RPC. Jim Rozen has had one running on pony start with no capacitors for years. There's a picture of it around on the site somewhere.

Happy wiring!

 

[jim rozen]

Even if one doesn't want to roll-yer own controller, buying a NEW "packaged" RPC starter/controller and a NEW 10 HP idler motor separately - leaving but the relatively straightforward work or sorting circuit-breaker, disconnect, basic wiring, can still come in at around HALF that $2700 figure.
....

And the half, that's *retail*. Never pay retail.

Surplus 10 hp motor, 3/4 hp pony motor, some 2X4s and rubber stoppers, maybe a fused knife switch. $<200

 

[jim rozen]

.... Jim Rozen has had one running on pony start with no capacitors for years. There's a picture of it around on the site somewhere.
Happy wiring!

Oh no. Not THAT thing again. Apologies.

 

[thesjg]

Two times for-sure, three or so, not unrealistic.

Once sorted, an RPC is a VERY low maintenance animal.

A Phase-Perfect wants new capacitors on a regular basis.
"RTFM". 3-year intervals, my one.

Phase Perfect's built in the last couple of years have switched to film type for the line filter capacitors. The filter caps are the ones that tended to need to be replaced frequently in some percentage of installations. Service intervals in future versions of TFM will follow real-world experience with warranties but the expectation is for a significantly longer interval.

 

[James H Clark]

Thank you, to all who replied. I'm starting to think my best option is a RPC. My friends' is so loud, makes you want to wear ear plugs. I figure his must be shot. I looked at the website of North America phase converters earlier. I'll talk to them. I'm afraid Phase Perfect is for now financially not in the cards. I appreciate any advice.

Toplever: I would recommend that if possible in your shop situation, that you put it in a different room. My RPC is relatively quiet, but still would want it in another room, if possible.
Good luck.
JH

 

[JST]

Phase Perfect's built in the last couple of years have switched to film type for the line filter capacitors. .............

If properly spec'd, I'd expect those to be in-place for life. The prior experience with capacitors does not suggest "properly spec'd" has always been the case, so we'll see.

 

[jim rozen]

Phase Technologies "spec" seemed to have started with "the American Disease".

I would not mind what components they used, as long as they supported all their drives. As in, published
schematics so they could be trouble-shot when they go bad (as they seem to do with considerable regularity).
Nothing last forever, but if you can fix it, it might as well. 1931 receiver, works as new:

 

[JST]

I would not mind what components they used, as long as they supported all their drives. As in, published
schematics so they could be trouble-shot when they go bad (as they seem to do with considerable regularity).
Nothing last forever, but if you can fix it, it might as well. 1931 receiver, works as new:

The problem with modern stuff is the specialization of parts. An IC to to "THAT" particular job. Cost less in high volume.

Also becomes very expensive or true "unobtanium" when the large user moves on.

Meanwhile, things made with relativley common parts (as if there are any of those now), are repairable into the future, because there are typically stocks of parts still around.

Vacuum tubes are one. I know who bought the last run ever of US made new # 6550 power tubes..... we did. Set it up with Mr Hornung (name IIRC) who was the facility manager, and got umpteen thousand for a product we made.

But, they are still around, and the most popular types are even made in obscure places. Many popular tubes are around, many others disappeared. Try to get a real 6CA7 these days. You will likely be steered away to a european part number that is inferior in every spec, even though it is listed as a "replacement".

But, this is 60+ years later. Try to find a particular TO-3 power transistor nowadays.... it MAY be possible, quite possibly not. You can still find most "radio tubes", if you want them badly enough.

In the case of PP, they apparently used a particular set if specialty ICs that were available then, but not now. So it is not really having "decided to" not support the older models.

Facts are that they are probably unable to support them, due to not being able to get the parts. It would take a huge redesign effort to support them. It's not just the cost to PP to do that, it is also the cost that would result for the parts.

You would be better off to buy new at the cost (might be considerably cheaper) than buy the replacement parts (printed circuit assemblies) if they were redesigned to use current parts. You'd be paying for the design and qualification time.

 

[jim rozen]

Business' don't keep old gear as housepets nor run museums. We upgrade.

And a brand new PP is an upgrade from rev N-1, because....?

Because it works. The old one doesn't. In my book that's not an upgrade. It's a one-for-one replacement. Oh fine, they have
"new improved" capacitors that might not go ka-blooey quite so often. How would you feel if Ford wanted you to buy a new car
every time something went wrong with you present one?

OOh. Starter's gone bad, you can't fix that, we won't let ya. You need to buy a new one - a new truck, that is. Think of it as an upgrade.

 

[JST]

And a brand new PP is an upgrade from rev N-1, because....?

Because it works. The old one doesn't. In my book that's not an upgrade. It's a one-for-one replacement. Oh fine, they have
"new improved" capacitors that might not go ka-blooey quite so often. How would you feel if Ford wanted you to buy a new car
every time something went wrong with you present one?

OOh. Starter's gone bad, you can't fix that, we won't let ya. You need to buy a new one - a new truck, that is. Think of it as an upgrade.

They apparently used parts that are now obsolete. THAT would require a new PWB, and testing, and fiull qualification, maybe UL submission..... all for a small amount of repair parts.

So........ All that work would be COSTED INTO the repair parts. At the small volume that would be made, the cost would be prohibitive per part, and most would say 'hell, for that it's cheaper to buy a new one". And they would be correct.

Businesses are not in the charitable work arena.

If you called Philco about parts for that radio you talked about (or whoever), odds are you'd have to use the way-back machine to make the call, and even if they were in business, it would be the same deal as with PP.

Damn, qwitcherbitchen................ stuff goes obsolete. And that means yuh kant git it no more.....

 

[jim rozen]

You guys fail your spot check. That's a National SW-3, made by the company that existed in Malden, MA for many years. They're LONG gone.

National Radio Company - Wikipedia

Radio Attic's Archives - National SW-3 Model II (1933)

Nobody is suggesting that PP service obsolete equipment. The suggestion is they document their products so they can be repaired BY THE END USER. See the hair-pulling going on regarding a pair of maybe-zener diodes that are all that's standing in milacron's way. Probably.

The correct analogy is that ford considers every aspect of its vehicles proprietary and won't release any information for fear of "lawsuits" or because "we can't make any money when users repair our stuff."

 

[JST]

..............
Nobody is suggesting that PP service obsolete equipment. The suggestion is they document their products so they can be repaired BY THE END USER. .......................

Couple of issues.....

1) If the manufacturer cannot get the parts, then you can't either. If the part is programmed, that's "proprietary IP", which literally cost them a million to develop, and would not be proprietary if they released it. They are probably still using some variety of it, so it's not like it is unused and free.

2) Manufacturers have gotten in trouble when idjits assumed they know what they were doing when service info was provided to the end user (by definition an idjit). Folks have taken that as open season, opened it up, damaged themselves, and naturally promptly sued the manufacturer. Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe then argued, successfully, that the provision of service info was a suggestion that the user should attempt servicing.

So for that blame a combo of the corporation, the idiot users, and the lawyers. "Products as a service, not a purchase" is really "a thing" now.

 

[thesjg]

Nobody is suggesting that PP service obsolete equipment. The suggestion is they document their products so they can be repaired BY THE END USER. See the hair-pulling going on regarding a pair of maybe-zener diodes that are all that's standing in milacron's way. Probably.

The correct analogy is that ford considers every aspect of its vehicles proprietary and won't release any information for fear of "lawsuits" or because "we can't make any money when users repair our stuff."

I suppose a lot of this is a matter of perspective. From the Phase Technologies side this "non-serviceable" point of view would make anyone in the company shake their heads and wonder what you are talking about. A great deal of the Phase business is VFD's and Phase Perfect's that live at the end of very long lines and eat bad power all day, every day, in "lightning country". Great effort is put into engineering products where components can be replaced in the field by the end user. Phase offers one of the most repairable and serviceable products in the (VFD) industry and continues to improve on that front. Of course, in this case components doesn't mean a couple of diodes soldered to a PCB, and it's unreasonable to expect it would mean that.

That said, if I can help in some circumstance by chasing a part number down on an old BOM or similar, I'll do what I can.

 

[jim rozen]

Full disclosure: my comments are based on anecdotes seen on this board by owners of older vintage PP units. I don't own one (rely on a rotary converter for my minimal 3 phase needs) but work in industry where full documentation is routinely available for diagnosing and repair of equipment, including parts lists, schematics, mechanical diagrams.