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Sodick, table to limit and table to lower setup.

Luke.kerbey

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Hi folks,

Hopefully someone can shed some light on this fundamental alignment setup.

I’ve been trying to get my taper cutting down to a tee recently and have been using my machines TDTL_V2 as opposed to the TDTL.

Firstly,

- What is the difference between V1 and V2?

- how frequently does everyone run this cycle?

- When it asks for an angle in offset H0000, should this be the angle I’m setting up to cut only? What if my part has a range of angles like 5-15 degrees? Should I just use 10? If I use 0 degrees Will that only check vertical alignment?

- also, why would my table to limit be 0.5mm or so different from the last time it was ran?
I have had the top head off and realigned since then but that shouldn’t affect the limit position? How is this actually calculated?

- in the manual it says to put in the table limit, and table lower, but the cycle also calculates the table to upper and when I input the new table limit, my table to upper is out by the same difference. Should I up date this aswell?
I know this changes every time I move the head, but the relationship between the two will be wrong if it isn’t updated?

- I’m also lucky enough to have the taperflex option on my machine. Can I use the normal 20 degree guides with my taperflex jig and measuring cycle? Or will it not work because of the internal guide geometry difference between the Taperflex and standard guides?

- lastly, what else should I know? Or have made apparent that I don’t know? I’m on my own now, so I’ve only got myself to learn from.

Yes there’s a few questions there. Hopefully some of you folks can help answer a few of them.

I really need to get my taper cutting down to perfection. I make extrusion tooling so I have a lot of angled transitions between many plates in one tool so it helps when it all matches up at the end!

I’ve been using the taperflex a lot recently and have had so pretty decent results. But could still be better. I’ll chew those questions another time!!

Thanks, Luke.
 

Shane030173

Aluminum
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
PA
V2 is just an updated version. It does give a more accurate measurement. Z values will change if you remove the heads. We too are a plastic extrusion shop doing a lot of 4 axis cuts. The way it sounds, you should be doing 4 axis cuts and not taper cuts. If you have taper flex, use it. It will give you very accurate angles and part geometry. Our angle plates match up to the straight plates with no step. We have the taper flex guides as well to enable angles up to 45 but we try to keep under 30. Here is our taper flex page.

taper flex.jpg
 

Shane030173

Aluminum
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
PA
Also, the standard flush cups are only good up to 10 degrees. You need to use 10mm cups for up to 20 degrees. Taper flex cups 20-45 degrees.

The AWT Jet nozzle is only good up to 12 degrees. You need the 2mm nozzle for up to 20 degrees. No nozzle over 20.
 

JZ.

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Location
pa usa
Hi folks,

Hopefully someone can shed some light on this fundamental alignment setup.

I’ve been trying to get my taper cutting down to a tee recently and have been using my machines TDTL_V2 as opposed to the TDTL.

Firstly,

- What is the difference between V1 and V2?

- how frequently does everyone run this cycle?

- When it asks for an angle in offset H0000, should this be the angle I’m setting up to cut only? What if my part has a range of angles like 5-15 degrees? Should I just use 10? If I use 0 degrees Will that only check vertical alignment?

- also, why would my table to limit be 0.5mm or so different from the last time it was ran?
I have had the top head off and realigned since then but that shouldn’t affect the limit position? How is this actually calculated?

- in the manual it says to put in the table limit, and table lower, but the cycle also calculates the table to upper and when I input the new table limit, my table to upper is out by the same difference. Should I up date this aswell?
I know this changes every time I move the head, but the relationship between the two will be wrong if it isn’t updated?

- I’m also lucky enough to have the taperflex option on my machine. Can I use the normal 20 degree guides with my taperflex jig and measuring cycle? Or will it not work because of the internal guide geometry difference between the Taperflex and standard guides?

- lastly, what else should I know? Or have made apparent that I don’t know? I’m on my own now, so I’ve only got myself to learn from.

Yes there’s a few questions there. Hopefully some of you folks can help answer a few of them.

I really need to get my taper cutting down to perfection. I make extrusion tooling so I have a lot of angled transitions between many plates in one tool so it helps when it all matches up at the end!

I’ve been using the taperflex a lot recently and have had so pretty decent results. But could still be better. I’ll chew those questions another time!!

Thanks, Luke.

Have to agree with Shane030173 on the Taper Flex 100%. If you have that option, you def. want to utilize it.

How do you cut 4axis? Do you set your TL and TU in program software or use G74/G75 TP/TN, G51/G52 to program taper?

As far as the H000 value, both of my machines are set at 2.0°, but that might be just the standard setting. With the width of the slot on the Square Block they give you I have never gone over 5° with it. I've only ran the programs when they were set up, shop moved, and when we had some issues with the 537L.

If you are taking the heads off, you def. want to keep the relationship between the heads updated.
 

Luke.kerbey

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Hi Shane,

What’s the difference between 4 axis and taper cutting? I’m assuming a terminology difference between us both.

And can I use my standard guide set with the taper flex measuring cycle? Or can I only use the tape flex guides?

Also when you say no step, do you mean perfectly seamless? Or can you feel a tiny step with a scribe point?

To get that accuracy, can you cut everything in one go, or do you increase the offset for the first cut, then decrease offset down to size?


And in response to Jz, I program all my taper stuff from either a spatial move from a DXF import or from a parasolid import. I only use IQ on the machine, I’ve never used Heart NC.
 

Shane030173

Aluminum
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
PA
4 axis is when you have a different shape on the top and bottom of the part. Like a circle at the bottom and rectangle at the top. This will have different angles throughout the part. Here is a 4 axis program. You can see it doesn't call out an angle. You need to set the TN to the the top of the part and the TP to the bottom. Each line has two different G01 moves. first is X and Y and second are the U and V. G141 and G142 tells the machine its 4 axis and left or right offset.

Search Data : ,Water,D0.010mm,Brass,Steel,H2.76mm,Punch,Open-U,7,3orMore );
;
( ON OFF IP HRP MAO SV V SF C PIK CTRL WK WT WS WP PC SK BSA );
C000 = 013 018 2215 000 353 +023.0 8.0 0013 0 000 0000 025 160 112 057 000000 000000 ;
C001 = 002 007 2215 000 000 +062.8 8.0 1026 0 000 0000 025 180 112 240 000000 000000 ;
C002 = 015 014 0515 000 000 +014.0 3.0 1038 0 000 0000 025 180 112 240 000000 000000 ;
H000 = +000000.000390;
H001 = +000000.008230;
H002 = +000000.005870;
H003 = +000000.005350;
;
;
N0000;
;
TP0.0;
TN2.75;
G90;
G92 X0.0 Y0.0 U0.0 V0.0;
;
(Database name: ALN600G.xml);
;
(Fluid: Water);
(WireDiameter: 0.010);
(WireMaterial: Brass);
(WorkpieceMaterial: Steel);
(Thickness: 2.76);
(MachiningType: Punch);
(NozzlePosition: Open-U);
(Condition: 3orMore);
(FinishRy: 7);
;
;
M03;
G00 X0.65072 Y-0.02883 U0.0 V0.0;
QAIC(2,1,0.00492,009.0,0.00689,0.00315,030.0,0002,0007,20,035);
T91 (Thread Wire);
;
(SolidWire - 4 Axis Contour : Sodick);
T94 (Water dielectric);
T84 (Pump ON);
(ROUGH PRIMARY CUT);
C000;
G141 H000;
G01 X0.65022 Y-0.02877 : G01 X0.65022 Y-0.02877;
G01 X0.52572 Y-0.01489 : G01 X0.05 Y0.03814;
H001;
G01 X0.52572 Y-0.08914 : G01 X0.05 Y-0.36506;
G03 X0.58133 Y-0.13882 I0.05 J0 : G01 X0.05 Y-0.44268;
G01 X0.76029 Y-0.11863 : G01 X0.05 Y-0.66505;
G01 X0.93926 Y-0.09843 : G01 X0.05 Y-0.88741;
G01 X1.12039 Y-0.09843 : G03 X0.16667 Y-0.98601 I0.1 J0.0;
G01 X1.38463 Y-0.14085 : G03 X0.59049 Y-0.80704 I-0.16667 J0.98601;
G01 X1.64886 Y-0.18326 : G03 X0.88933 Y-0.45726 I-0.59049 J0.80704;
G03 X1.70428 Y-0.13355 I0.00542 J0.04971 : G03 X0.93098 Y-0.36506 I-0.88875 J0.457;
G01 X1.70428 Y-0.00651 : G03 X0.99997 Y0.00765 I-0.93098 J0.36506;
G01 X1.70428 Y0.12054 : G03 X0.92529 Y0.37927 I-0.99997 J-0.00765;
G03 X1.65038 Y0.17039 I-0.05 J0 : G03 X0.8799 Y0.47516 I-0.92465 J-0.37897;
G01 X1.38539 Y0.13987 : G03 X0.5823 Y0.81298 I-0.8799 J-0.47516;
G01 X1.12039 Y0.10935 : G03 X0.16667 Y0.98601 I-0.5823 J-0.81298;
G01 X0.93926 Y0.10935 : G03 X0.05 Y0.88741 I-0.01667 J-0.0986;
G01 X0.75749 Y0.10935 : G01 X0.05 Y0.70501;
G01 X0.57572 Y0.10935 : G01 X0.05 Y0.52261;
G03 X0.52572 Y0.05935 I0 J-0.05 : G01 X0.05 Y0.44135;
G01 X0.52572 Y-0.01489 : G01 X0.05 Y0.03814;
H000;
G01 X0.65022 Y-0.02877 : G01 X0.65022 Y-0.02877;
H000;
G140 G01 X0.65072 Y-0.02883;
T85 (Pump OFF);

4 axis.jpg
 

Shane030173

Aluminum
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
PA
Yes you can use standard guides up to 22.5 degrees. The taper guides are great but very expensive.

At the most, there may be .0005" step between plates

Yes one program, one run. No need to adjust offsets.

Heart NC isn't very good for 4 axis programming. IQ works great.
 

Shane030173

Aluminum
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
PA
Here is a taper program. You can see there is no u and V moves. Just A2.0 which calls out the 2.0 deg angle for slug relief.


( Search Data : Fluid(Water-3),WireDiameter(0.010),DWireMaterial(Brass)in,WorkpieceMaterial(Steel),MachiningType );
;
( ON OFF IP HRP MAO SV V SF C PIK CTRL WK WT WS WP);
C000 = 012 015 2215 000 250 045 8 0035 0 000 0000 025 160 098 049;
H000 = +000000.000390;
H001 = +000000.006340;
;
;
N0000;
;
TP0.975;
TN0.75;
G90;
G92 X0.0 Y0.0 U0.0 V0.0;
;
(Database name: AG600L.xml);
;
(Fluid: Water-3);
(WireDiameter: 0.010);
(WireMaterial: Brass);
(WorkpieceMaterial: Steel);
(Thickness: 0.39);
(MachiningType: Punch);
(NozzlePosition: Open);
(Condition: 1Time);
(FinishRy: 20);
;
;
M03;
G00 X0.0 Y-2.916 U0.0 V0.0;
QAIC(2,1,0.00492,000.3,0.00610,0.00039,004.0,0012,0020,15,035);
T91 (Thread Wire);
;
(SolidWire - 2 Axis Contour : Sodick);
T94 (Water dielectric);
T84 (Pump ON);
(ROUGH PRIMARY CUT);
C000;
G41 H000 G51 A0.0 G01 X0.0 Y-2.8415;
A2.0;
H001;
X-0.0545;
G03 X-0.0745 Y-2.8615 I0 J-0.02;
G01 Y-2.9705;
G03 X-0.0545 Y-2.9905 I0.02 J0;
G01 X0.0545;
G03 X0.0745 Y-2.9705 I0 J0.02;
G01 Y-2.8615;
G03 X0.0545 Y-2.8415 I-0.02 J0;
G01 X0.0;
M01;
A0.0;
G40 H000 G50 G01 X0.0 Y-2.916;
T85 (Pump OFF);
 

Luke.kerbey

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Ah okay, I generally call all cutting using the U & V axis ‘taper cutting’ I don’t differentiate between the two, our tools have lots of both types.

And that’s good about the standard dies. I’m gonna try that on my next tool.

In terms of accuracy. I’m getting about 0.05mm step. It’s not measurable so that’s my guess.

One problem I’m having is where I’ve been using the taper flex guides for for all taper work. I’ve had to use the taperflex nozzles too so I’ve lost all my flushing. Which means that my cutting speed can be 20-50% of my normal speed when taper cutting. I reckon I’m taking out too much material on the rough cut by cutting so slow.

I’ve also been using the tension settings from the taper flex book, but I think they are too low and are causing in accuracies also.

For example a 20degreeccut, what tension would you use?
 

Shane030173

Aluminum
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
PA
Yeah with larger cups less flush, slower feedrates. When using taper flex cups I usually crank WP up to 63.


The book settings are way too low for tension. It caused poor accuracy and horrible finishes. Up to 20 deg I use 120 for rough and 140 for skims. Over 20 deg 85 to rough 110 first skim, 120 second skim.
 

JZ.

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Location
pa usa
Hi Shane,

What’s the difference between 4 axis and taper cutting? I’m assuming a terminology difference between us both.

And can I use my standard guide set with the taper flex measuring cycle? Or can I only use the tape flex guides?

Also when you say no step, do you mean perfectly seamless? Or can you feel a tiny step with a scribe point?

To get that accuracy, can you cut everything in one go, or do you increase the offset for the first cut, then decrease offset down to size?


And in response to Jz, I program all my taper stuff from either a spatial move from a DXF import or from a parasolid import. I only use IQ on the machine, I’ve never used Heart NC.

That's cool you use the IQ. I have never used the IQ or HeartNC for cutting, I've always wanted to try it out but haven't been able to.
Hope you get the results your looking for.
 

wdevine

Aluminum
Joined
May 17, 2010
Location
Massachusetts
I'd just like to point out that a .05mm mismatch on a 4 axis cut to the next plate is pretty good, especially on a steeper angle. Oh, and I'm also doing the tooling at a plastic extrusion company.
 

Luke.kerbey

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
What is is steep, more then 20 degrees? Also, what machine are you using? How old? Our main wirer is 5 years but is basically a showroom piece.
 

wdevine

Aluminum
Joined
May 17, 2010
Location
Massachusetts
Yea, I would say 20+ you could start calling it steep.

Of course you can dial things in better but there comes a point where you're chasing your own tail for diminishing returns.

Right now I'm using a Makino, but over the years I've had Fanucs, Mits, Sodick, Charmilles, and Chmer, both new and old as hell.
 

wdevine

Aluminum
Joined
May 17, 2010
Location
Massachusetts
I probably have it dialed in a little better in that, I was saying more in general terms. There are a lot of factors that can throw that dimension off.
 

Luke.kerbey

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Tell me about it 😂, what sort of dies are you guys making? I make mostly profile dies. Steel formers and some Ali formers.
 

wdevine

Aluminum
Joined
May 17, 2010
Location
Massachusetts
We are pretty much a custom profile die place. Have made some pretty crazy alum and steel calibrators. I've only been there for around a year but ran wires for 20 years before that.
 








 
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