South Bend questions

[gunnerwrench]

Good afternoon all,
I'm a mechanic but, my employer has a South bend 13... circa 1965 ish. Really good machine with plenty of back lash and hard use. At some point someone removed the data plates for the quick change gears. Is there a way to replace that or just get a good resolution picture of them so I have a better idea of how to set the machine up for jobs? Next question, the lathe has the original lantern style tool post. My employer is very unlikely to upgrade the tool holder . So, how do I make the best out of what is there? Generally speaking I am the only person that has used the lathe for anything productive. But getting tooling is bureaucratic. I got some brazed on carbide in 5/16 for the holders we have. After rounding off the learning curve and sacrificing some.... I still have a few. So what options if any exist for the legacy type post and holders. It has a 3 jaw scroll chuck that works ok and I can seemingly get between. 002-.005 of accuracy out of it depending on my patience that day. I am a humble hobbiest at best but the lathe has saved our bacon quite a few time with having to make special tools, drivers, or repair tools with higher learning curves. It has a taper attachment that has about 40 years of dust on it is there a good resource for setting that up. Some of this may seem novice... and it is. I have only automotive machining experience. Think cylinder heads, brake drums/rotors and engine blocks. The lathe is pretty new to me. But with the help of the how to run a lathe book, YouTube university and some of its well know professors I've seen some success. I appreciate any resources or information that you can provide.

 

[packrat2]

If your employer will not help with upgrading the tooling on the lathe maybe you will need to buy some yourself.??
Lots of photos and help here with data plate and gear train set up...Will employer sell you the lathe.???

 

[johnoder]

Catalogs here at Mr. Well's web page

The SBL Workshop

documentation and information on South Bend Lathes

www.wswells.com

And at Vintage Machinery

South Bend Lathe Works - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

vintagemachinery.org

 

[gunnerwrench]

If your employer will not help with upgrading the tooling on the lathe maybe you will need to buy some yourself.??
Lots of photos and help here with data plate and gear train set up...Will employer sell you the lathe.???

That's kind of where I'm at. I don't mind some pay to play. But permanent modifications would eventually become a donation so I'd like to avoid those. It's rare that I have to thread something but I have had to do some boring and turning. Is it possible to find a boring bar set up for the lantern style tool post? As far as them sell it.... I doubt that's an option but I have put that question out there. The machine data plate says 13x6 but the serial number is 10308tkx14. Is there a better thread to start identifying what kind of tools I can find? Thanks! I've spent a little time today trying to locate a manual for it. And have had no luck I looked through vintage machinery and a few other links. Anywhere else I can have a look

 

[gunnerwrench]

Catalogs here at Mr. Well's web page

The SBL Workshop

documentation and information on South Bend Lathes

www.wswells.com

And at Vintage Machinery

South Bend Lathe Works - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

vintagemachinery.org

Thank you!

 

[packrat2]

Quote "Is it possible to find a boring bar set up for the lantern style tool post? "
Yes there is, I well look and see if I have one laying a round here, will let you know.....

 

[packrat2]

sent you a PM about lathe tools....

 

[gunnerwrench]

With current set up one of the problems I run into quite a bit is the tool height being not quite right. Almost like the tool holder is too low on the lantern post. So the angle is wrong to the work piece. If that makes sense.... so for turning and facing it seems like the cutter is too low. If I put it center for facing then the actual cutting happens toward the bottom of the cutting tool and actually rubs or chatters more than cuts. Or it leaves a bigger nub at the center than I think it should. On the outside diameter it's less problematic but still troublesome. I've used a rule and bolt to try line the cutter up but I've had better luck by eye. Are there better methods for the old school type tool post and holders?

 

[neanderthal mach]

I last used one of those lantern style tool posts over 50 yrs ago back in high school so I'm no authority about using them for sure. But in the G.H. Thomas book The Model Engineers Workshop Manual he points out that depending on the cutting tools dimensions, these tool posts don't totally eliminate the requirement of shimming the tool holder itself up to the rough approximate C/L height first. At that point the tool posts rocker adjustments are then used for the last final adjustments to get you on center height. Oddly his information about doing so is the only time I've ever seen that mentioned including all my other machinist books, magazines, forum posts and YT videos. As you've already found, not doing so alters the angle the tool holder is positioning the tool tip at enough so the tool either rubs or cuts poorly.

That South Bend HTRAL book is ok and I even have a few different hard copy versions of it myself. But in my opinion the one produced by Hercus Lathes in Australia found here, http://www.opensourcemachinetools.org/archive-manuals/Hercus_TextBook_of_Turning.pdf is what the SB book should have been but isn't.

Like anything else machining related, the durability and quality of those brazed carbide cutting tools will be pretty much equal to what they cost. The dirt cheap off shore one's are at best not worth using. But even the far better / expensive brazed carbide can't work up to there full potential if you don't have a proper way of putting the final hone on the cutting edges. A green wheel on the usual bench grinder will only rough shape a brazed carbide tool and that rough ground edge can not produce a fine finish on your work piece. For the proper finished tool edge you either need a slow speed diamond wheel or a plated diamond hone and do it old school. While carbide tipped tooling has been around since at least the 1920's, that lathe would have mostly been meant to use high speed steel cutting tools. Again the usual bench grinder can only rough the tools edges and cutting tool angles into what your needing and a decent stone used to put the finished honed edges on the tool.

 

[gunnerwrench]

I last used one of those lantern style tool posts over 50 yrs ago back in high school so I'm no authority about using them for sure. But in the G.H. Thomas book The Model Engineers Workshop Manual he points out that depending on the cutting tools dimensions, these tool posts don't totally eliminate the requirement of shimming the tool holder itself up to the rough approximate C/L height first. At that point the tool posts rocker adjustments are then used for the last final adjustments to get you on center height. Oddly his information about doing so is the only time I've ever seen that mentioned including all my other machinist books, magazines, forum posts and YT videos. As you've already found, not doing so alters the angle the tool holder is positioning the tool tip at enough so the tool either rubs or cuts poorly.

That South Bend HTRAL book is ok and I even have a few different hard copy versions of it myself. But in my opinion the one produced by Hercus Lathes in Australia found here, http://www.opensourcemachinetools.org/archive-manuals/Hercus_TextBook_of_Turning.pdf is what the SB book should have been but isn't.

Like anything else machining related, the durability and quality of those brazed carbide cutting tools will be pretty much equal to what they cost. The dirt cheap off shore one's are at best not worth using. But even the far better / expensive brazed carbide can't work up to there full potential if you don't have a proper way of putting the final hone on the cutting edges. A green wheel on the usual bench grinder will only rough shape a brazed carbide tool and that rough ground edge can not produce a fine finish on your work piece. For the proper finished tool edge you either need a slow speed diamond wheel or a plated diamond hone and do it old school. While carbide tipped tooling has been around since at least the 1920's, that lathe would have mostly been meant to use high speed steel cutting tools. Again the usual bench grinder can only rough the tools edges and cutting tool angles into what your needing and a decent stone used to put the finished honed edges on the tool.

Thanks for the additional information. I am slowly working through flattening the learning curve that I have to work with. I had the thought that I should shim the tool holder for better centered tool height. However I have not really had time to experiment with it. I will start with the hercus book and work forward.

 

[Superbowl]

A quick change tool post can be switched in and out with a lantern style in under two seconds. Therefore, if you bought one with a few holders it would be no problem to take them with you and put the lantern style back on when you buy your own lathe.

 

[john.k]

Sounds like your boss is an idiot......and mindlessly mean with it......nothing unusual there...........however ,the gap in the hold down will usually accomodate one of the small ,cheap Chinese carbide inserts.........put a stack of rectangular pieces under it to get the correct centre height............if you buy anything with your own money ,next move is you will be accused of stealing it from your work.

 

[gunnerwrench]

A quick change tool post can be switched in and out with a lantern style in under two seconds. Therefore, if you bought one with a few holders it would be no problem to take them with you and put the lantern style back on when you buy your own lathe.

Packrat2 got me hooked up with some stuff. I will likely need a t nut. he offered to help there too since i dont have access to a mill. So that may be my next solution. It's hit and miss with how much time I get with equipment. Usually there is some kind of time through out week to get back there. This week I only had enough time get back and sweep chips and oil it lol. I have my eye out for a lathe my better is even on board! Maybe I'll find a good vintage set up. But have been looking at some new ones too

 

[gunnerwrench]

Sounds like your boss is an idiot......and mindlessly mean with it......nothing unusual there...........however ,the gap in the hold down will usually accomodate one of the small ,cheap Chinese carbide inserts.........put a stack of rectangular pieces under it to get the correct centre height............if you buy anything with your own money ,next move is you will be accused of stealing it from your work.

I'd say that's a good assessment of the general environment. I have some tooling now thanks to this thread. My plan is to only use what I need at that time. I was finding some 5/16 shank chinesium stuff that held a triangle carbide insert and thought I might try it. Even wondered if a higher quality insert may be found that fits it. Probably require some digging in the McMaster catalogs.

 

[TheOldCar]

I have some 4-way turret tool posts if you’re interested (free). One of them has the T nut for a South Bend 13 if I remember right.

Heck, I have a SB 13 in very good shape that I would sell. It just sits and collects dust. Has a good quality fully enclosed VFD drive, wired right, uses the original switch, etc. It can run 1300 RPM without overheating the spindle bearings. Also has taper attachment, NOS cross feed screw & nut, and NICE metric change gear set with a new chart plate. New wipers, new oiler buttons, fully flushed & cleaned.
Oh, and it sits on 6” riser blocks that bolt to the factory leg holes.
All this was done for me to use it, not to sell it. But it isn’t getting used anymore & I need to make space for another machine.
Send a PM if interested.

 

[cyanidekid]

neanderthal has some good general advice here, but I will add two things;

1) learn to grind a High Speed Steel tool bit. that is seriously needed as a basic level 1 skill, and as mentioned, is what the machine was made for. HHS will work tons better than cheap brazed carbide any day, and on aluminum and brass, its better than most carbide at any price.

2) you work in a vehicle repair shop, I presume, and so will have lots of right angle die grinders at hand. you probably already have 2" Rolock pads on some. get diamond "sanding" disks for that, 60 grit and 100 grit for sharpening carbide. WAY , WAY cheaper and easer than getting a diamond hone, and forget sharpening carbide by hand (painfully slow, don't even try) or with a green wheel (marginal at best, just not that much harder than the carbide).

Diamonds on motors is the only sane way to sharpen carbide, but it does help to learn the basics on HHS.

DO avoid the dust as cobalt has a radioactive isotope naturally occurring in it, and one tiny particle that gets lodged in your lung is a time bomb.

good luck and work safe!

 

[john.k]

The cheap Chinese carbides for small lathes are surprisingly good......they are meant for Ally,and have a sharp edge...........In general,good quality commercial carbide is not suitable for small lathes ,as they always have an edge radius that demands a certain amount of speed and power,and also machine rigidity.......none of which SBs have.

 

[animal12]

I think you will find that you can get more done with HSS . They've been saying for years on this forum that these lathes don't run at the speed required for carbide tooling . Thinking about your problems with getting the tool on center , does your tool post have the rocker & concave plate that goes below the tool holder ?
animal

 

[gunnerwrench]

I think you will find that you can get more done with HSS . They've been saying for years on this forum that these lathes don't run at the speed required for carbide tooling . Thinking about your problems with getting the tool on center , does your tool post have the rocker & concave plate that goes below the tool holder ?
animal

Yes the rocker and concave plate are there. But I'm sure like the rest of the machine there is ample wear. I have 2 pieces of HSS that are blank no grinds on them. I have avoided making an attempt at forming them into tool because I only have the 2. When I asked for cutters... I got the brazed on tools and a funny look from the parts guy. Now I have some knowledge and pictures I might try. The tool height isn't way off but if you don't really pay close attention the the front clearance angle rubs on the work piece. So with some advice from here I shimmed the tool holder a bit with some key stock and by eye ball on the tail stock center it looked way better but I didn't have time to make a cut so I don't actually know if the cut will improve. The more I learn and read the more I believe that carbide is not the best choice for this application. I thought I might sit down on my weekend and practice grinding on some scrap 5/16 stock and see if I can get the concept down.

 

[animal12]

Alot of teh brazed carbide tool bits don't come ready to use . You need to grind your clearances in part that goes in the tool holder , If you don't grind them they will rub like you have found . Don't be afraid to work on them some just don't take off too much directly under the cutter , you need to leave some meat there for rigidity .
animal