Speedio vs. Decked out Syil vs. ???

[wehnelt]

I'm considering a machine for one-off prototyping of small steel and aluminum parts with some occasional hard milling. A 300 mm^3 work envelope would be adequate, but more X travel is always nice. I will rarely need to make more than five of anything. I like and have put some time in on a super mini mill but would like to get something that's a bit of a step up. Definitely something heavier. My budget is in the upper five figures. I was considering a used Brother Speedio with a 4th axis, as they seem like extremely well thought out, robust, accurate machine and people seem to really love them. The work envelope and size of the machine would also work well for my needs. They seem to do very well with surfacing, too, which I'll do once in a while. For a similar price, I could also completely kit out a Syil X7 with a 5th axis, and maybe an E40 spindle. I'm not a business, and I'm not trying to set any speed records, and so I'm wondering if the Speedio is ultimately wasted on me, and what I'd really be giving up with the Syil besides fast rapids and tool changes. Suggestions for other machines are also appreciated!

 

[rklopp]

Syil, Haas Super Mini, and Speedio are three different leagues. Do you have tooling yet, and do you know how to run a CNC, especially with 4-5 axes? Take a look at a DN Solutions DEM 4000. You can probably get one with a 4th within your budget, but without much left for tooling, workholding, coolant, etc.

 

[wehnelt]

No tooling yet, but I've budgeted for it. Yes I've run a CNC, specifically the super mini mill that I mentioned above, among others. I've not done 4/5 axis on a mill, but I've run a 3-axis mazak lathe with live tooling. Yes I realize they're all in different leagues -- but I'm curious what specifically puts them in these different leagues. Is the speedio in this other league because it's highly optimized to run 24/7 production extremely fast in a way that doesn't benefit me in any way at all, or is it in this other league in such a way that would justify the cost to me because it has other benefits. This is my question. DEM 4000 looks pretty good but I wish it had a faster spindle. I don't want to go below 16k RPM.

A new BVM is probably closer to what I want since it has the faster dual contact spindle, but new that would likely be well out of my price range. It's also huge.

I vastly prefer used machinery, too. I don’t mind fixing things and hate eating the initial depreciation cost.

 

[gkoenig]

Call Yamazen. We have a couple of X2 generation S300s in inventory still that are extremely attractively priced.

 

[jhov]

I vastly prefer used machinery, too. I don’t mind fixing things and hate eating the initial depreciation cost.

Then get a used Speedio, S2 or some other quality machine. Quality machines aren't wasted on anyone. Even completely unused, they're stored value. A cheap machine will always be just that and will be harder to sell. Just look at how long Tormachs sit in the classifieds for, until their owners realize they're going to have to take a huge loss to unload it. Much of what makes a quality machine just that is the support that is available for it a decade or two (or three) after purchase. I don't know much about Syil but I understand their support is lacking here in the states even now. Even buying quality machines, you could fill an entire 1 man prototype shop with machines and tooling with that budget if you shop smart and buy used.

 

[EmGo]

Then get a used Speedio, S2 or some other quality machine. Quality machines aren't wasted on anyone.

I kinda disagree with this, in a way. Not entirely, but kinda.

The first problem is what you define as "quality". I don't think I've ever had anything but "quality machines" but that doesn't necessarily mean doodly-squat. My lathes would kick ass over any Okuma, but where is American Tool ? You seriously want to compare a Devlieg with a Mazak ? Dream on.

So, to an extent, this version of "quality" is actually "brand name". And there's some truth to that but on the other hand, that often is nnot as glorious as you'd hope. We got shit all over by mazak on multiple occasions. I won't go there anymore because that "quality brand" turned out to be not very good at all, for us.

Or maybe the brand is not well-known in your area but in fact, it's great. I bought fellows shapers because no one in the US heard of Sykes, well, turned out to be dumb. A V10a would have been tits and less expensive for much of my work while fellows was the known brand but again, they are also gone. Now fellows is a bunch of assholes, so much for "buying quality".

I think vmc's are a commodity at this point. I would choose based on what works best for me, and how easy it is for me to repair because "factory technicians" suck (sorry Vanc, but you're retired now so it's safe to say that ... a lot of times this "quality service" you get with the big brand name can better be described as "bend over and spread 'em" .... maybe Big Business can justify that (which is another part of why US prices are noncompetitive) but small guys can't.

I'm not sure you get doodly-squat with a lot of what we are told is "quality" and I'm pretty sure a lot of people who buy based on the hope of "good service" are in for a rude surprise when something finally does go wrong.

 

[DavidScott]

Having a Brother I can say it is designed to be extremely easy to work on with incredible documentation, especially if you get the service manuals.

 

[EmGo]

Having a Brother I can say it is designed to be extremely easy to work on with incredible documentation, especially if you get the service manuals.

I can't imagine not getting all the manuals witha machine ! But yeah, Brothers do seem cool but again, it's not just "buy quality!" to me .. for instance, probably there'd be no argument saying a brother is a better-built better-designed machine than a fadal. But if you are a one guy part-time shop, doing ten or twenty parts a month, what's the use of the 10,000 ipm rapids and half-second tool change ? Where the old fadal may cost you ten grand fixedup and the brother thirty ?

I don't think a person should buy the cheapest crap they can get but on the other hand, need to be realistic about matching what they truly need with what the machine itself offers. If it's a hobby, then having the cool machine that costs you money is better than having a fleabag that makes you money.

But if it's a business ... not as simple as just "buy the famous one".

Imo, for the whole two cents' that's worth

 

[jhov]

I kinda disagree with this, in a way. Not entirely, but kinda.

The first problem is what you define as "quality". I don't think I've ever had anything but "quality machines" but that doesn't necessarily mean doodly-squat. My lathes would kick ass over any Okuma, but where is American Tool ? You seriously want to compare a Devlieg with a Mazak ? Dream on.

So, to an extent, this version of "quality" is actually "brand name". And there's some truth to that but on the other hand, that often is nnot as glorious as you'd hope. We got shit all over by mazak on multiple occasions. I won't go there anymore because that "quality brand" turned out to be not very good at all, for us.

Or maybe the brand is not well-known in your area but in fact, it's great. I bought fellows shapers because no one in the US heard of Sykes, well, turned out to be dumb. A V10a would have been tits and less expensive for much of my work while fellows was the known brand but again, they are also gone. Now fellows is a bunch of assholes, so much for "buying quality".

I think vmc's are a commodity at this point. I would choose based on what works best for me, and how easy it is for me to repair because "factory technicians" suck (sorry Vanc, but you're retired now so it's safe to say that ... a lot of times this "quality service" you get with the big brand name can better be described as "bend over and spread 'em" .... maybe Big Business can justify that (which is another part of why US prices are noncompetitive) but small guys can't.

I'm not sure you get doodly-squat with a lot of what we are told is "quality" and I'm pretty sure a lot of people who buy based on the hope of "good service" are in for a rude surprise when something finally does go wrong.

I think you're overthinking things. I define "quality" as something that will continue to be useful and valuable over time. I don't care if it is a "brand name" or not. If it still works reliably, has decent parts support and holds its value decades later, it's a quality machine.

 

[EmGo]

I don't care if it is a "brand name" or not. If it still works reliably, has decent parts support and holds its value decades later, it's a quality machine.

That limits you to fanuc and maybe dynapath. The rest of this stuff about "part support" is a myth. Is a Monarch or Pacemaker engine lathe "quality" ? Is there disagreement about that ? Would you like to buy a part for one ? Or even a print for a part ?

I don't have a huge amount of experience with Japanese machines but from chitchat with owners, same thing. Mori is well-respected, certainly high quality, do you want to buy a tool changer arm, sir ? That'll be $18,397 please.

If you can't make it yourself, then kiss it off, yes they have parts "available" but the price is 6x higher than the value of the entire machine.

I'm not bitching but this is just how it is. There's parts available for stuff for maybe ten years (and not what you'd call reasonable, either), after that - and I don't care who it is - the best you're going to get is "That's so old ! we'll have to make it and charge you 500 times what it's worth !" and you'll be happy to get that.

If that's the definition of 'quality' then time for an unpleasant awakening. It doesn't exist. They say it does but when you try to do it, sooprize sooprize.

I don't think people should be convinced by the 'service' schpiel. It's iffy at best. In reality if the machine is over a few years old, you're on your own. Or if lucky, there's aftermarket independent guys servicing whatever you bought. But factory support ? Dream on, sweet prince.

Good thing we're machine shops, we can make our own. Because that's what you're going to end up doing nine times out of ten anyhow.

 

[DavidScott]

There's parts available for stuff for maybe ten years (and not what you'd call reasonable, either), after that - and I don't care who it is - the best you're going to get is "That's so old ! we'll have to make it and charge you 500 times what it's worth !" and you'll be happy to get that.

I don't think people should be convinced by the 'service' schpiel. It's iffy at best. In reality if the machine is over a few years old, you're on your own.

That is not my experience with either a 1996 Enshu or a 2001 Kitamura. Tech help and parts availability from the MTB was always excellent from both when the machines were around 18-20 years old, which was the oldest I needed it. With the parts like rails, blocks, and lube pumps that I could buy elsewhere the prices from the MTB were within 10-20% of the best elsewhere, and in stock ready to ship today. For spindle shafts or custom spindle couplings the price was higher but not unreasonable, and multiples in stock ready to ship today. Do your research, before you buy the machine, and you should have better "luck" with what you end up with.

I can't imagine not getting all the manuals witha machine ! But yeah, Brothers do seem cool but again, it's not just "buy quality!" to me .. for instance, probably there'd be no argument saying a brother is a better-built better-designed machine than a fadal. But if you are a one guy part-time shop, doing ten or twenty parts a month, what's the use of the 10,000 ipm rapids and half-second tool change ? Where the old fadal may cost you ten grand fixedup and the brother thirty ?

I don't think a person should buy the cheapest crap they can get but on the other hand, need to be realistic about matching what they truly need with what the machine itself offers. If it's a hobby, then having the cool machine that costs you money is better than having a fleabag that makes you money.

But if it's a business ... not as simple as just "buy the famous one".

Imo, for the whole two cents' that's worth

I am speaking of the quantity and quality of the documentation, and what I got with my Brother far surpasses what was available for either the Fadal, Enshu, or Kitamura. I list those machines as they are the only ones I know I got all documentation that was available. As for getting a Fadal, you ever run one??? I have, from when it was brand new in late 98 with the new 88hs control. I would not take one if it were pristine and free vs paying fair market price for a good Japanese mill, and I am a one-man home shop. It always tweaks me out that we are allowed to talk about Fadals here, they are not even close to being comparable with a real VMC. My opinion is based on programming, running, and servicing one for 7 years.

 

[jhov]

That limits you to fanuc and maybe dynapath. The rest of this stuff about "part support" is a myth. Is a Monarch or Pacemaker engine lathe "quality" ? Is there disagreement about that ? Would you like to buy a part for one ? Or even a print for a part ?

I don't have a huge amount of experience with Japanese machines but from chitchat with owners, same thing. Mori is well-respected, certainly high quality, do you want to buy a tool changer arm, sir ? That'll be $18,397 please.

If you can't make it yourself, then kiss it off, yes they have parts "available" but the price is 6x higher than the value of the entire machine.

I'm not bitching but this is just how it is. There's parts available for stuff for maybe ten years (and not what you'd call reasonable, either), after that - and I don't care who it is - the best you're going to get is "That's so old ! we'll have to make it and charge you 500 times what it's worth !" and you'll be happy to get that.

If that's the definition of 'quality' then time for an unpleasant awakening. It doesn't exist. They say it does but when you try to do it, sooprize sooprize.

I don't think people should be convinced by the 'service' schpiel. It's iffy at best. In reality if the machine is over a few years old, you're on your own. Or if lucky, there's aftermarket independent guys servicing whatever you bought. But factory support ? Dream on, sweet prince.

Good thing we're machine shops, we can make our own. Because that's what you're going to end up doing nine times out of ten anyhow.

Maybe our very different locations lead to very different experiences. Or maybe you just enjoy argument the sake of argument. There are certainly well supported 10+ year old machines here in the states still reliably making good parts.

 

[Vancbiker]

I’ll echo DavidScott’s experience. With manufacturers like pre-merger Mori and Makino parts availability is usually excellent for 15 plus years. The best thing about those premium makes is just how rarely one does need parts or service. My Mori is 27 years old now and the only thing outside regular maintenance like lubricants and batteries is a grease line to the Y ballnut broke. Parts from McMaster-Carr cost less than the shipping. My Makino is 35 years old and had a diode module in the spindle drive fail. Less than $150 repair. Key to a fair bit of this troublefree life is doing things like keeping up on the maintenance. Don’t go years without changing oil or cleaning air filters. Keep an eye on way oil use. Listen to the machine.

 

[Pete Deal]

I’ve said all this before so sorry for being a broken record. My first cnc mill was a brother tc-s2a. 20+ years old at the time. It was beat when I got it. I did a lot of upgrading and all parts were still available. Toward the end of the time I owned it a servo drive fried in it. This machine and the newer ones I have now all have sanyo contols. I opened servo drive up and all the big chips in it were made by Sanyo. I mention this because it allows better control of the product life not the life cycle of third party chips. Anyway, I wound up ordering a new drive for it. The drive was out of stock in the US so they drop shipped one from Japan and I had it in a week. Also, I was able to do all the work myself with everything I did to the machine. This old beater machine was sold to a guy who thinks it’s great and now wants another brother.

For me the best thing about the brother mills I have/ had is the support and my ability to fix them. On a new machine this isn’t such a big deal I guess but more so as they age.

I never personally owned a haas but having to pay $1200 to have a tech drive in to replace a soldered on memory backup battery on a circuit board on a machine at my previous employer made me glad I didn’t own one.

 

[LOTT]

Brothers are awesome. Sounds like you can afford the QUALITY, so find an S500 or S700 with 4th and don't look back. (With 500mm you can just fit a 4th and 6' vise at the same time, only reason not to grab one of those S300's).

Regarding repairs and service: one of our guys left the carrier in an Orange vise after removing the jaws in one of our S500's. High acceleration/deceleration means the carrier slid forward and was hit by the Z axis way cover. The vise screw and cover both bent pretty good. I called Yamazen while it was being pulled apart, a replacement was all of $40 and in stock. We beat the cover flat so we could keep running, and it was good enough I decided to wait on ordering the replacement until we needed other parts. It's still waiting. Literally nothing has gone wrong on our Brothers and it seems like that's normal.

Speedio's are just nice to run, and it's not just the speed. If I'm making a prototype or a fixture and programming fast and loose I might not even crank the rapids to 100%, it's still really user friendly.

As an aside and not brand specific- getting your post dialed and networking machines helps with one offs, to the point I don't think you'll miss not having a manual mill (referring to OP's other thread).

 

[drcoelho]

I second the Brother Speedio, great machine, very reliable, very easy to use, excellent documentation, and outstanding support from Yamazen. Can't go wrong with these machines.

 

[EmGo]

As for getting a Fadal, you ever run one??? I have, from when it was brand new in late 98 with the new 88hs control. I would not take one if it were pristine and free vs paying fair market price for a good Japanese mill, and I am a one-man home shop. It always tweaks me out that we are allowed to talk about Fadals here, they are not even close to being comparable with a real VMC. My opinion is based on programming, running, and servicing one for 7 years.

As a matter of fact, I didn't own it but yeah, have a little fadal time. Since I was the first dummy in my peer group to get an nc machine, I ended up being the handholder. No complaints the whole experience was okay fun and educational.

So I went with Dave to LA Westec and he bought a fadal, they were brandy new and haas didn't even exist past the 5c indexers then. Bought smartcam too, from the guy with the gimpy leg. And you know what ? he made parts with it. Decent parts, that became quite a few nice products. He did well with the fadal, and then got the big eyes about this "quality" thing and bought a roku-roku to replace it with. The machine was a lot cooler and red ! can't beat that but basically the parts were the same. Maybe faster but basically, three axis is three axis.

And then along came one of our perennial recessions and uh-oh, if his mom hadn't died and left enough of an inheritance to pay down the roku, he'd have lost the whole bowl of noodles.

you guys think I am poopooing quality. I'm not. But unless you are a hobbiest, the price of a machine versus what it can do is more important than the ooh and aaah factor. It's not a trophy wife. You can't sleep with it. You can't even take it to the bar and show it off. All it's good for is making stuff that you can sell. The one that does that at the lowest cost is the one you want, even if it's ugly as sin and runs rtloonix.

And vanc, you don't count ! For you it's a $150 diode, for us it's a field trip by the $150/hr tech plus travel time from lollapalooza or a ship to LA for a $3,000 exchange. Being a career field service guy does have some advantages as far as owning machines !

 

[DavidScott]

So you didn't RUN the Fadal. If all you want is a toy then the Fadal is fine, but if you do any production the Brother, or similar good machine, will make the same parts 2 to 3 times faster. That may just be numbers if you're not the one running it. If you are making the parts then the better machine will give you 2-1/2 weeks a month off vs working the full month with a Fadal. I for one like the extra time to do other things.

 

[wehnelt]

It seems like we’re a bit off topic. What I wonder is what the value is of high speed rapids and tool changes are if every part you run is the first run, and thus every program you run is a proof, and therefore run relatively slowly. What other value can the speedio bring?

 

[Wsurfer]

To the OP. Another speedio owner here (S500-X1). Got mine new in 2019. I do quick turn on offs, prototypes and small production of my own products (100 parts is about my max so far.). Most grades of stainless, aluminum, high end plastics etc. Easy to use and very versatile (change the Mcode for specific operations like 3D surfacing etc). Even if your not using it for business, ease of use, reliability, and accuracy, small footprint make it a pleasure to work with. Yamazen has been great, although to be fair, I think Brother makes their job easier. They were instant on support questions after delivery, and even hooked me up with a free larger coolant tank when one became available. After 3 years, they called me just to check in. It was a short conversation "Hey how's it going ?". "Great, thank's for calling, bye". The manuals are fantastic if you really want to go that deep down the rabbit hole. I also highly recommend the Blum tool setter. One word of caution... Don't run rapids on 4 unless everything is bolted down or secured (like parallels etc).