Speedio vs. Decked out Syil vs. ???

[Wsurfer]

It seems like we’re a bit off topic. What I wonder is what the value is of high speed rapids and tool changes are if every part you run is the first run, and thus every program you run is a proof, and therefore run relatively slowly. What other value can the speedio bring?

If your that confident you'll never run more than one part, or make any money doing it. Ignore the high speed aspect and focus on quality and accuracy ease of use etc. Other wise, it could be a huge mistake accepting a slow machine (been there done that).

 

[Vancbiker]

……. What other value can the speedio bring?

The answer to that has already been posted by many. What are you going to do when the oddball control on a Syil isn’t working right or the toolchanger hangs or some programming thing baffles you? Even if you choose the Siemens option. There just is no good knowledge base for them. Post a Brother operational or maintenance question here, even on a weekend, and you are almost guaranteed a decent, knowledgeable response. Syil, Syntec, Etc. all you’re gonna hear is crickets.

 

[wehnelt]

Alright. I think I’m convinced then. Thanks for the input everyone!

 

[EmGo]

So you didn't RUN the Fadal.

Well, actually, for a while I did. It's a vmc, it made parts, the parts were fine and built a business.

But the machine that made me the most money was a Cintimatic H40, with an accramatic nc control. That boy was good for 10k a month. One of the dumber moves I made was to upgrade to something with linear interpolation.

If all you want is a toy then the Fadal is fine, but if you do any production the Brother, or similar good machine, will make the same parts 2 to 3 times faster. That may just be numbers if you're not the one running it. If you are making the parts then the better machine will give you 2-1/2 weeks a month off vs working the full month with a Fadal. I for one like the extra time to do other things.

If they both cost the same then your comparison would be valid. But as far as I know, they don't.

The point is not that a fadal or haas or deckel is better than a brother. The point is that the work you do is the deciding factor. A machine is just a tool. It's not something that will get you girls or make your dick bigger. The decision should be made on what you expect it to do and how much it will cost to do that and how secure your finances are. It's quite possibe that a brother is best for this person. They are definitely a good machine.But it's also possible that something else would be a lot more suitable for his situation. The simple answer, "Just buy the best quality no matter what the cost" can be a bad thing, too.

I've been there. There was nothing ever any better than a K&T 200 or 600 with the D control. Kick Fanuc ass left right and center, a wonderful, capable machining center with a control that I'd take right this second over anything Fanuc or Japan ever made. But guess what ? There is no K&T. There is also no Hitachi-Seiki. And there is no Mori-Seiki. There is no support for older Deckels, which are really the only thing that has the capabilities they do for a certain kind of work. There's many more examples of 'quality' that turned out to be not the best choice, if we look harder.

Life is not as simple as you're trying to make it. Fadals work fine, for a certain niche. As do Haas'es and 1962 Cintimatic H40's. At $2500 that Cincy paid for itself four times over in one month. You can top that with a Brother ?

Yeah, a brother may be great for op. Or it may be a waste of $50,000. I'm tending towards the latter because he doesn't know what he's doing. That's not a criticism, no one does when they start out. But you don't get max productivity out of a machine when you start out either. Me flyng a 737 would be a waste, too. But it's a quality airplane, with great support and an admirable track record

 

[Digital Factory]

It seems like we’re a bit off topic. What I wonder is what the value is of high speed rapids and tool changes are if every part you run is the first run, and thus every program you run is a proof, and therefore run relatively slowly. What other value can the speedio bring?

Speedios are awesome for prototyping.

They are fast not necessarily because they cut faster. They're fast because they drastically reduce non-cutting time.

Here's just one example of how it benefits someone running one-offs. The speed at which you can setup tools is unparalleled. Need to swap out tool #3?

1. Go to MDI and hit T1M6. This will position the T3 pocket two spaces away from the spindle to where it can be manually swapped. Because the rapids and ATC carousel are so fast, this takes less than 2 seconds.
2. The door doesn't have an unlock button, so pull the door open with your left hand: 1 second.
3. Pull the tool with your right hand (no tool release button) and throw in the other: 5 seconds.
4. Go to MEM and hit 3->Enter->Cycle Start. This loads user program 3 (which Yamazen sets up for you), which touches off Tool 3: 10-15 seconds.
5. Now go back to your program. Still in MEM, hit 100->Enter. Now you're back in program 100: 2 seconds.

The difference between a 30 second tool swap and a 2 minute tool swap, multiplied by several tools, is night and day when you're in a flow state.

 

[EmGo]

The speed at which you can setup tools is unparalleled. Need to swap out tool #3?

1. Go to MDI and hit T1M6. This will position the T3 pocket two spaces away from the spindle to where it can be manually swapped. Because the rapids and ATC carousel are so fast, this takes less than 2 seconds.
2. Pull the tool with one hand (no tool release button) and throw in the other. 5 seconds.
3. Go to MEM and hit 3->Enter->Cycle Start. This loads user program 3 (which Yamazen sets up for you), which touches off Tool 3. 10-15 seconds.
4. Now go back to your program. Still in MEM, hit 100->Enter. Now you're back in program 100. 2 seconds.

The difference between a 30 second tool swap and a 2 minute tool swap, multiplied by several tools, is night and day when you're in a flow state.

Or you can do it like K&T, stick the tools wherever you want in the chain, push the button, it runs the chain around once and reads all the tools and places them where they need to be in the program. You never need to keep track of where a tool is because it doesn't matter, the control keeps track.

 

[mhajicek]

Speedios are awesome for prototyping.

They are fast not because they cut faster. They're fast because they drastically reduce non-cutting time.

Here's just one example of how it benefits someone running one-offs. The speed at which you can setup tools is unparalleled. Need to swap out tool #3?

1. Go to MDI and hit T1M6. This will position the T3 pocket two spaces away from the spindle to where it can be manually swapped. Because the rapids and ATC carousel are so fast, this takes less than 2 seconds.
2. Pull the tool with one hand (no tool release button) and throw in the other. 5 seconds.
3. Go to MEM and hit 3->Enter->Cycle Start. This loads user program 3 (which Yamazen sets up for you), which touches off Tool 3. 10-15 seconds.
4. Now go back to your program. Still in MEM, hit 100->Enter. Now you're back in program 100. 2 seconds.

The difference between a 30 second tool swap and a 2 minute tool swap, multiplied by several tools, is night and day when you're in a flow state.

Compare to my Haas CM-1's:

1. MDI: T1 ATCFWD. (or just ATCFWD to get the next tool.)
2. Open door, hold new tool between thumb and forefinger of left hand, grasp old tool in spindle between ring and middle fingers of left hand.
3. Hold TOOL RELEASE with right hand while swapping tools with left hand.
4. Close door and run automatic touch-off. (Or if doing several tools, wait until they're all swapped and run the auto touch-off on the range of tools while you walk away and grab stock.)

Total time approx 30 seconds per tool.

But all that's beside the point. For some people, depending on what they're doing, shaving a couple seconds off of setup or cycle time is a big deal. For others, it just isn't. And if it doesn't matter for what you're doing, it doesn't make any sense to pay extra for it. Spending money has an opportunity cost; assuming you have that money available, there are other things that you could be spending it on, which may be more productive.

 

[Digital Factory]

What I wonder is what the value is of high speed rapids and tool changes are if every part you run is the first run, and thus every program you run is a proof, and therefore run relatively slowly.

For some people, depending on what they're doing, shaving a couple seconds off of setup or cycle time is a big deal. For others, it just isn't. And if it doesn't matter for what you're doing, it doesn't make any sense to pay extra for it.

I agree, but @sp1nm0nkey asked a specific question and I answered accordingly.

Ultimately, what does or doesn't make sense is for him to decide.

 

[Garwood]

Well, actually, for a while I did. It's a vmc, it made parts, the parts were fine and built a business.

But the machine that made me the most money was a Cintimatic H40, with an accramatic nc control. That boy was good for 10k a month. One of the dumber moves I made was to upgrade to something with linear interpolation.



If they both cost the same then your comparison would be valid. But as far as I know, they don't.

The point is not that a fadal or haas or deckel is better than a brother. The point is that the work you do is the deciding factor. A machine is just a tool. It's not something that will get you girls or make your dick bigger. The decision should be made on what you expect it to do and how much it will cost to do that and how secure your finances are. It's quite possibe that a brother is best for this person. They are definitely a good machine.But it's also possible that something else would be a lot more suitable for his situation. The simple answer, "Just buy the best quality no matter what the cost" can be a bad thing, too.

I've been there. There was nothing ever any better than a K&T 200 or 600 with the D control. Kick Fanuc ass left right and center, a wonderful, capable machining center with a control that I'd take right this second over anything Fanuc or Japan ever made. But guess what ? There is no K&T. There is also no Hitachi-Seiki. And there is no Mori-Seiki. There is no support for older Deckels, which are really the only thing that has the capabilities they do for a certain kind of work. There's many more examples of 'quality' that turned out to be not the best choice, if we look harder.

Life is not as simple as you're trying to make it. Fadals work fine, for a certain niche. As do Haas'es and 1962 Cintimatic H40's. At $2500 that Cincy paid for itself four times over in one month. You can top that with a Brother ?

Yeah, a brother may be great for op. Or it may be a waste of $50,000. I'm tending towards the latter because he doesn't know what he's doing. That's not a criticism, no one does when they start out. But you don't get max productivity out of a machine when you start out either. Me flyng a 737 would be a waste, too. But it's a quality airplane, with great support and an admirable track record

You're dick didn't get bigger?

Are you certain you bought the right machines?

 

[LOTT]

Brothers aren't that expensive, an S500 is probably less than a Haas CM-1. If the OP is planning to use tiny endmills then the CM's 30k spindle could be the way to go.

 

[mhajicek]

Brothers aren't that expensive, an S500 is probably less than a Haas CM-1. If the OP is planning to use tiny endmills then the CM's 30k spindle could be the way to go.

$66k base, $78k with probing and 50,000 RPM. Took me less than a minute to look up.

What does it take to get pricing on the Brother, and can I do it online over the weekend?

 

[LOTT]

$66k base, $78k with probing and 50,000 RPM. Took me less than a minute to look up.

What does it take to get pricing on the Brother, and can I do it online over the weekend?

I wish. Pretty sure Yamazen would sell more if they at least listed base pricing. And more videos, again like Haas.

 

[triumph406]

It seems like we’re a bit off topic. What I wonder is what the value is of high speed rapids and tool changes are if every part you run is the first run, and thus every program you run is a proof, and therefore run relatively slowly. What other value can the speedio bring?

Well it automatically makes you a better business man, your programming will improve, your ability to quote jobs will get better, your ability to plan a job and execute will improve, your inbox will be flooded with RFQ's from customers who pay in no more then 30 days, material will become cheaper when the supplier hears you have a Brother, you'll scrap less parts, tools will last longer, you'll never crash into a vice again, everytime you turn on the machine money will just flow out of the control. You'll be more attractive to women, the nice ones, your dick will get longer, and all the herpes and syphilis sores on it will self heal.

All because you bought a Brother.

and when you need to tap the ends of the part that is 20" long you can do that on your Brother, or if you need all of a 40x20 table you can do that on your Brother. Or can you? Better figure out what parts your going to make before you drink the Brother Coolaid. Remember it's your money your going spend. Only you know what's right for you, not the Brother Mafia.

 

[LOTT]

@triumph406 The OP didn't ask whether he should buy a 40x20 or a horizontal. Read the title. Most of us recommended Brother, if you want to add a relevant opinion then explain why he should get a Syil.

 

[EmGo]

$66k base, $78k with probing and 50,000 RPM. Took me less than a minute to look up.

They are that high now ? CM-1 is a non-representative example ... they were something like 15 grand when they were the Office Mill ? But turned out there was almost nothing else out there for tiny parts, so they got popular enough for Haas to really jack the price up. Anything over 15k is stupid ridiculous, imo. And yeah, I have alternatives for way less.

Read the title. Most of us recommended Brother, if you want to add a relevant opinion then explain why he should get a Syil.

Eeek, we have to stick to the title now ? When did they put in that rule ?

Seriously, when people who are just starting out ask a question here, "sticking to the title" is not a great plan.

btw

Suggestions for other machines are also appreciated!

Actually, for what he described, I'm thinking a Deckel could be an attractive alternative.

 

[triumph406]

@triumph406 The OP didn't ask whether he should buy a 40x20 or a horizontal. Read the title. Most of us recommended Brother, if you want to add a relevant opinion then explain why he should get a Syil.

Where did I mention a horizontal?

If it was the reference to tapping long parts, I do those in a Fadal with 28" Z height. Which doesn't exist in a Brother.

As to his 300mm^3 work volume, he does say more x would be usefull. I do a lot of prototype stuff, and consider a 40*20*28 to be the bare minimum for parts I do, and he's a f'd unit if he buys a wiz-bang Brother only to discover it doesn't have the travels he needs.

Why should I explain why he needs a Syil, I don't know and have never heard of Syil.

 

[triumph406]

My budget is in the upper five figures. I'm not a business, and I'm not trying to set any speed records, and so I'm wondering if the Speedio is ultimately wasted on me

A machine tool salesman isn't likely going to tell you the truth,

So you have lots of money, your not a business, and you don't want to set any records. I think selling you a Brother is almost reckless. It's a machine you don't need, you don't need the rapids, the very fast tool changes. I bet there's other machine out there that might be more suitable.

I don't look at what's out there anymore so couldn't recommend an alternate machine.

On the other hand those little 30 taper toolholders are really cute.

------------------------------------------

I used to work at a Honda motorcycle shop in the UK, Rye's of Southampton

One salesman would try and extract the most money out of a prospective customer, sell m'cycles that were too large or fast for their capabilities, and at a financial cost that rider could barely afford.

The other salesman sold the motorcycle he thought best suited a rider, his ability, aptitude and finances taken into account. Many a rider came in to buy a 750F2, and left with a 400/4, or CJ250. The salesman made less in commission, but I bet he slept better at night.

-----------------------------------------

Monty Python said it best

I'm a Fadal owner and I'm OK
I sleep all night ,I work all day

I cut lots of metal, I skip and jump
I like to Press wild flowers
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars.

 

[EmGo]

What are you going to do when the oddball control on a Syil isn’t working right

You order it with the Siemens or Fanuc control if that worries you.

However, I would not buy from them. The mills look okay but the company is dishonest. They don't have a china website at all, which is inconceivable for a real chinese company. Tai cang is not shanghai, it's a stinky little burg halfway between shang and kunshan. 99 chances out of 100 they do not have "factories in shanghai and ningbo" because nobody in machine tools does that. All those people on their "about us" page are most certainly not factory leaders. It stinks to the heavens of dead fish.

If the assist ever gets done playing with her nails I'll have her look them up, but as of this moment I'd bet it's three people with a registered capital of $500 some place in the sticks. I don't mind dealing with small companies at all, lots of them are great. But dishonest ones, no way.

 

[LOTT]

Where did I mention a horizontal?

If it was the reference to tapping long parts, I do those in a Fadal with 28" Z height. Which doesn't exist in a Brother.

As to his 300mm^3 work volume, he does say more x would be usefull. I do a lot of prototype stuff, and consider a 40*20*28 to be the bare minimum for parts I do, and he's a f'd unit if he buys a wiz-bang Brother only to discover it doesn't have the travels he needs.

I'm pointing out that the "mafia" just explained why it's not only about tool change speed.

The size thing is relative, if someone needs 28" of Z then Brother never gets mentioned.

 

[Mtndew]

You'll be more attractive to women, the nice ones, your dick will get longer, and all the herpes and syphilis sores on it will self heal.

Lies,
We have a Brother and I still have a tiny wee wee.