EmGo
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
- Location
- Over the River and Through the Woods
It's that "we" word. Only one monster dick per brother, so if there's more than one of you in the shop, you may actually go backwards.
It's in the fine print
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Speedio vs. Decked out Syil vs. ???
- Thread starter wehnelt
- Start date
- Replies 65
- Views 4,014
It's that "we" word. Only one monster dick per brother, so if there's more than one of you in the shop, you may actually go backwards.
It's in the fine print
604Pook
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2022
I don’t really get the hate on the Fadals.
My Fadal 4020 makes things all the time, and has been for the last 13 years I have ran it, and it did for the previous owner since new in 2002. Has needed a few parts over the years, but has been running typically at 10k rpm this whole time.
I have never had another brand of VMC but for what I do, my budget and needs it works
I am actually thinking of buying another one, but a 3016L with a 4th axis right now.
They are cheap, parts are reasonable and they are easy to work on. With cheap cost to purchase and minimal overhead it can take a little longer to make something and I don’t mind.
I still do the programs for and used to run/setup a new CR Onsrud wood router with Fanuc control, so that’s my only reference to newer controls other then the lathe I have with a newer Fagor control.
My Fadal 4020 makes things all the time, and has been for the last 13 years I have ran it, and it did for the previous owner since new in 2002. Has needed a few parts over the years, but has been running typically at 10k rpm this whole time.
I have never had another brand of VMC but for what I do, my budget and needs it works
I am actually thinking of buying another one, but a 3016L with a 4th axis right now.
They are cheap, parts are reasonable and they are easy to work on. With cheap cost to purchase and minimal overhead it can take a little longer to make something and I don’t mind.
I still do the programs for and used to run/setup a new CR Onsrud wood router with Fanuc control, so that’s my only reference to newer controls other then the lathe I have with a newer Fagor control.
If you ran an Okuma or other similar machine everyday, you'd understand.
hi-fly-cnc
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2022
I bought a Brother S700X2 about a year ago. I've little experience as a machinist, I don't/haven't owned other machines, so I don't totally know what I'm missing. However, I'm an IT guy and most of my time is spent in front of a keyboard, not in the workshop. So why did I buy the Speedio?
We build our own electrical product enclosures in house. Volumes are low (hundreds). I was previously using a little hobby router and it was "ok" (it's just aluminium, doesn't take much to cut it). However, I had a production crush and needed to solve this. I called Hurco, Haas and Brother (I'm in the UK). I went to see a local shop who have 8+ Haas and very happy with them. Then I went to see the Brother. I think you could describe the Brother as more like an office copier than a dirty bit of workshop machinery... I could honestly put this thing on the carpet in the office and it's (mostly) clean enough! The size, neatness, ease of working on it, were big sellers
However, the clinchers really were:
- It's fast for quickly making small volumes. For me, I'm not machining full time, so the quicker I can get back to making money in front of a keyboard the better. I'm generally standing in front of the machine for all my parts, so either because it's the first run, or because I only need 5 and have to swap parts around. So the rapids on this thing make SUCH a difference. Anyone who doesn't get this needs to play with one. I have a program where I can tap the rapids down from 5 to 4 and the program takes 25% longer to run... This machine accelerates to 10,000mm/min for repositioning moves when adaptive roughing across a 2mm wide slot (with a 0.5mm tool)...!
- Tool change time is amazing! Why should you care? My parts have silly tight features, like a 2mm slot with 0.5mm corners. I can use a 2mm, then 1mm, then 0.5mm tool, instead of going straight from 2 to 1mm. Adding 1 second for the tool change saves me 15+ seconds that the 0.5mm would otherwise take to do the same thing. So it's super easy to just program the part safely and not worry too much about optimising tool change ordering, etc. (I did some optimisation because Fusion was doing something stupid where it cuts middle, left, then right. Time saving was like 0.1s... The thing accelerates so fast that an inefficient path is costing you fractions of a second. Just no point optimising for 50 parts. Similarly if it makes it easy to split the program up and use extra inefficient tool changes, it's only costing you 1-2 seconds per part. That's a huge advantage to do things so they are easier to inspect or program)
- Reliability. I read all the posts here about Haas machines and not running them at 100%... The engineer who installed my machine listened politely all my worries, then turned around and said "you know you aren't going to see me again!!". He was like "I'll pop back for an annual service if you want one, but you are literally supposed to turn this machine on at full rapids, full spindle and just run it like that 24x7 for years!" I haven't owned the machine long enough to know if this is the case, but you can't easily search the internet and find a complaint about a Brother breaking down.
From my point of view, I just didn't have the experience to know how to maintain these machines (actually, it's amazing how quickly you gain it). So the Brother was 20% more expensive for something that was bonkers fast, reliable and clean and tidy, with good documentation.
It is reasonably well supported within Fusion360, however, the post benefited from some love (see here
https://github.com/ewildgoose/fusion-360-post-processors
I love the Blum probing. I'm starting to use that on all my one off parts. Again, I can hear all the experienced machinists jumping to tell me I'm wrong... However, I just don't use the machine often enough that I risk forgetting parts of a setup. So if I can automate as much of the setup as possible then I reduce error and increase setup time. So I store fixed points on the machine. Then in CAD I can initialise my WCS to be relative to those fixed points. Then I can run a probe cycle to confirm part location to the micron and even probe the exact softjaw locations (which might only repeat position to some fraction of a millimeter). This makes it so much easier to repeat a job, without the risk of remembering how to setup G5x to front/back/left/centre...
eg: https://www.instagram.com/p/CrL3mffI_yx/
I would say that if the parts fit and the price is right for your business, then it's a good choice. Whether it's "better" than something else I couldn't say. However, happy customer here.
We build our own electrical product enclosures in house. Volumes are low (hundreds). I was previously using a little hobby router and it was "ok" (it's just aluminium, doesn't take much to cut it). However, I had a production crush and needed to solve this. I called Hurco, Haas and Brother (I'm in the UK). I went to see a local shop who have 8+ Haas and very happy with them. Then I went to see the Brother. I think you could describe the Brother as more like an office copier than a dirty bit of workshop machinery... I could honestly put this thing on the carpet in the office and it's (mostly) clean enough! The size, neatness, ease of working on it, were big sellers
However, the clinchers really were:
- It's fast for quickly making small volumes. For me, I'm not machining full time, so the quicker I can get back to making money in front of a keyboard the better. I'm generally standing in front of the machine for all my parts, so either because it's the first run, or because I only need 5 and have to swap parts around. So the rapids on this thing make SUCH a difference. Anyone who doesn't get this needs to play with one. I have a program where I can tap the rapids down from 5 to 4 and the program takes 25% longer to run... This machine accelerates to 10,000mm/min for repositioning moves when adaptive roughing across a 2mm wide slot (with a 0.5mm tool)...!
- Tool change time is amazing! Why should you care? My parts have silly tight features, like a 2mm slot with 0.5mm corners. I can use a 2mm, then 1mm, then 0.5mm tool, instead of going straight from 2 to 1mm. Adding 1 second for the tool change saves me 15+ seconds that the 0.5mm would otherwise take to do the same thing. So it's super easy to just program the part safely and not worry too much about optimising tool change ordering, etc. (I did some optimisation because Fusion was doing something stupid where it cuts middle, left, then right. Time saving was like 0.1s... The thing accelerates so fast that an inefficient path is costing you fractions of a second. Just no point optimising for 50 parts. Similarly if it makes it easy to split the program up and use extra inefficient tool changes, it's only costing you 1-2 seconds per part. That's a huge advantage to do things so they are easier to inspect or program)
- Reliability. I read all the posts here about Haas machines and not running them at 100%... The engineer who installed my machine listened politely all my worries, then turned around and said "you know you aren't going to see me again!!". He was like "I'll pop back for an annual service if you want one, but you are literally supposed to turn this machine on at full rapids, full spindle and just run it like that 24x7 for years!" I haven't owned the machine long enough to know if this is the case, but you can't easily search the internet and find a complaint about a Brother breaking down.
From my point of view, I just didn't have the experience to know how to maintain these machines (actually, it's amazing how quickly you gain it). So the Brother was 20% more expensive for something that was bonkers fast, reliable and clean and tidy, with good documentation.
It is reasonably well supported within Fusion360, however, the post benefited from some love (see here
https://github.com/ewildgoose/fusion-360-post-processors
I love the Blum probing. I'm starting to use that on all my one off parts. Again, I can hear all the experienced machinists jumping to tell me I'm wrong... However, I just don't use the machine often enough that I risk forgetting parts of a setup. So if I can automate as much of the setup as possible then I reduce error and increase setup time. So I store fixed points on the machine. Then in CAD I can initialise my WCS to be relative to those fixed points. Then I can run a probe cycle to confirm part location to the micron and even probe the exact softjaw locations (which might only repeat position to some fraction of a millimeter). This makes it so much easier to repeat a job, without the risk of remembering how to setup G5x to front/back/left/centre...
eg: https://www.instagram.com/p/CrL3mffI_yx/
I would say that if the parts fit and the price is right for your business, then it's a good choice. Whether it's "better" than something else I couldn't say. However, happy customer here.
EmGo
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
- Location
- Over the River and Through the Woods
This is how we know you're a software guy ...
hi-fly-cnc
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2022
...Wait until you see my FFT analysis of it... :-)
..The blum TC-52 is an impressive probe. It is rated at full accuracy, measuring single touch at 2,000mm/min speeds. I tried mine at that speed and the last digit (micron) wouldn't always repeat, so I dropped measuring speeds to 1,000mm/min. Now it's unvarying cycle to cycle.
I'm obviously not claiming that the machine is micron accurate, but the spindle probe "repeats" it's measuring cycle to the micron every time. I'm not sure what grade the ballscrews are specified to, but I can doing an inside calibration of a setting ring, then an outside measurement of a gauge block in a different part of the ballscrew, and it tends to be sub 3 microns off nominal. This is significantly closer than I was expecting. Especially considering the speed that the probe is whipping around!
..The blum TC-52 is an impressive probe. It is rated at full accuracy, measuring single touch at 2,000mm/min speeds. I tried mine at that speed and the last digit (micron) wouldn't always repeat, so I dropped measuring speeds to 1,000mm/min. Now it's unvarying cycle to cycle.
I'm obviously not claiming that the machine is micron accurate, but the spindle probe "repeats" it's measuring cycle to the micron every time. I'm not sure what grade the ballscrews are specified to, but I can doing an inside calibration of a setting ring, then an outside measurement of a gauge block in a different part of the ballscrew, and it tends to be sub 3 microns off nominal. This is significantly closer than I was expecting. Especially considering the speed that the probe is whipping around!
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DavidScott
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2012
- Location
- Washington
Be real careful about doing many moves where one screw is going back and forth .01-.02" as it can push the grease out and damage that section of the screw.
You can control the order of operations by selecting starting points. Fusion will start at those points in the order they are selected.
mhajicek
Titanium
- Joined
- May 11, 2017
- Location
- Minneapolis, MN, USA
This. It's called "false brinelling", and I've done it; had to replace the Y axis thrust bearings. Get a machine with linear motors and it shouldn't be an issue.
604Pook
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2022
Its probably good I haven't ran one then, It would make me spend a bunch of money
In all seriousness then, if one were to go looking for a used Brother, what's considered an old machine with to many hours? Are they all great machines or is there years/models to stay away from?
I believe the older models with the older control is what you don't want if you can help it.
Look for one that has a C00 control. They just came out with the D control.
As for hours, these things were made to run 24/7/365, and most of them do.
One of the more knowledgeable Brother people will need to give you an idea of how many hours is too many, but it's probably a lot.
DavidScott
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2012
- Location
- Washington
I think the A control you want to stay away from as well as early B controls, but not sure about the B control limitations. Hours alone is not a good measure of wear since how well it was maintained makes a big difference.
Its probably good I haven't ran one then, It would make me spend a bunch of money
In all seriousness then, if one were to go looking for a used Brother, what's considered an old machine with to many hours? Are they all great machines or is there years/models to stay away from?
My experience of owning 20+ CNC mills and lathes over the past 19 years (no Brothers yet though) is you don't pay any less for a Fadal than you do for a used machine that is 10 times better.
It's OK to love your Fadal, but don't assume you wouldn't benefit from a way better machine if you haven't used one.
EmGo
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
- Location
- Over the River and Through the Woods
I don't think many Fadal owners are under false impressions
but if you make ten goofy aluminum parts a month and one comes up down the street for three grand in good shape, it'd be silly to say, "No not me ! I'll never own a Fadal because Brother is so much better !" That's what a lot of these guys are saying, and imo that's plain old silly.
At one point there were controls that could only run conversional, back in the true "drill/tap" days. Just something to be aware of if you do venture into pre-C00 machines.Its probably good I haven't ran one then, It would make me spend a bunch of money
In all seriousness then, if one were to go looking for a used Brother, what's considered an old machine with to many hours? Are they all great machines or is there years/models to stay away from?
Vancbiker
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Location
- Vancouver, WA. USA
Some here have an appreciation for fine machinery. If I. needed a machine and someone offered me a free Fadal, I’d take it. Then post it for sale ASAP and apply the funds to something quality. Might not make the most sense financially, but the idea of walking into my shop everyday and having use a Fadal is not enjoyable.I don't think many Fadal owners are under false impressions
That's what a lot of these guys are saying, and imo that's plain old silly.
No one said that. Garwood just said he'd spend the same money on a better machine. You should stick to Chinese propaganda that is harder for us to spot check....
Literally no one is saying that.
EmGo
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
- Location
- Over the River and Through the Woods
Bullshit. Look two posts up, that's what Vanc just said. Literally.
"Chinese propaganda" why don't you piss off, LOTT ? Stupid fuck, I've owned and run ten times more American nc machines than you've ever seen in your entire life. Fool.
Vancbiker
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Location
- Vancouver, WA. USA
Yes, it’s just what I said. Comes from doing field service and applications for one of their distributors for about 4 years. Got my belly full of Fadal during that time. An embarrassment to the US machine tool industry.
EmGo
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2018
- Location
- Over the River and Through the Woods
Right. And you're totally entitled to that opinion.
On the other hand, there's plenty of people here and out in the real world who make good parts and an okay living with fadal. They are also entitled to their opinion. And they have bank accounts to back it up.
Not everyone needs to be the same in this world. I personally would go for a JMC340 but don't push that off on other people
But LOTT can take his stupid crap and jam it back up his stupid ass.
