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Speedio vs Robodrill to upgrade existing VMC

crossthread82

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Hi all,

I'm looking to upgrade two Hurco Vm5's to something newer and faster that has the same footprint. Currently the Vm5 is (18x14x14)has tool and spindle probe and has a 8k cat40 spindle. Quite honestly its slow and lacking in the hp and rigidity department. We are mostly a prototype shop making ones and twos of things out off aluminum, delrin, copper; rarely some 303/304 and 1018. But do get the occasional batch of about 150 parts. We have a large budget so cost isn't a factor, we strictly want the best machine.

I think I've narrowed it down to two options, either a Brother Speedio S500x2 or a Robodrill D21MiB5adv. I'd like the new machine to have TSC but it's not a deal breaker. Other than that I'm not sure how to spec either machine. For the speedio 10k, 16k or 27k? Robodrill 10k or 24k? How does the rigidity compare between the two? Can either of them push a 3/8 or 1/2 alumigator endmill to its max? Should I get the BBT30 spindle in the speedio? Am I making a mistake going from cat40 to bt30?

Any insight from people with experience using either or both machines is appreciated.
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
One note on the brother 27k is it does not have dual contact available.

I think Yamazan is great to deal with and the machine has had very little down time.
 

BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
One note on the brother 27k is it does not have dual contact available.

I think Yamazan is great to deal with and the machine has had very little down time.

Thanks Ian. One thing though, the 27k does have BBT (Big Plus) available. 27k does not have CTS available.
OP, the Speedios are heavier, quicker and more stable machines with more configurations available, such as W1000, R pallet machines and M mill/turn machines. Many people feel the Brother control is more user friendly and appreciate the 100Mb or 500Mb standard memory. Spindle choice for me is based on what is the largest drill and tap you anticipate in what materials. 10k High Torque can handle 1.5" drill in mild steel, the 16k about 3/4" depending on the efficiency of the drill. Since you mentioned S500X2, those are stocked in the USA as a 10K rpm 14 Tool 'base', the 10K High Torque 21 Tool CTSI package or 16K 21 tool CTSI package machines. 27k is not stocked in USA as a S500, only S700X2. 27K is factory order on S300 and S500 in USA. 16k CTSI are the most popular. Do you have a local contact? Let me know if you need any assistance getting in touch with your local rep.
 

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
BBT is a must.
Robodrill 24k spindle is limited for constant running. Unless things have changed (I don't think they have), 18k is the limit for "no worry running".
I will add that I originally had problems with swarf getting onto the taper during toolchanges on my Robos. Running 14mm dia MA Ford 3flute knuckle cutters at S10000 F5000 throws chips everywhere.
I had the PLCs changed so when the machines toolchanged, they paused for a second 50mm above the completion of cycle, to allow the spindle air blast to ensure the taper was clean. This cured 99.99% of all problems but was not a Fanuc approved modification.
Their answer is an expensive coolant wash system, but you need micron filtration, otherwise you're washing chips onto the holder taper.

Brother is more rigid than a Robo.
If you're mostly prototyping, then I take it there's a lot of downtime for set-ups and changeovers/fixtures etc?
Therefore, I wouldn't worry about highest revs, and with the steel that you occasionally cut, I'd be going for the 16k spindle.
Not sure how or if there's a problem with swarf on the taper of these machines.
There's an army here who have them and love them and for good reason.

If money is not a problem, I'd be looking at the R650X2.
Bigger travel, 40 tool, and twin pallet.
This way you can have a nice size tool library leaving tools set in the machine, and have 2x tables so you can leave say vices on one pallet, and chick or fixture system set on the other.
 

crossthread82

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Thanks Ian. One thing though, the 27k does have BBT (Big Plus) available. 27k does not have CTS available.
OP, the Speedios are heavier, quicker and more stable machines with more configurations available, such as W1000, R pallet machines and M mill/turn machines. Many people feel the Brother control is more user friendly and appreciate the 100Mb or 500Mb standard memory. Spindle choice for me is based on what is the largest drill and tap you anticipate in what materials. 10k High Torque can handle 1.5" drill in mild steel, the 16k about 3/4" depending on the efficiency of the drill. Since you mentioned S500X2, those are stocked in the USA as a 10K rpm 14 Tool 'base', the 10K High Torque 21 Tool CTSI package or 16K 21 tool CTSI package machines. 27k is not stocked in USA as a S500, only S700X2. 27K is factory order on S300 and S500 in USA. 16k CTSI are the most popular. Do you have a local contact? Let me know if you need any assistance getting in touch with your local rep.

Frank,

Our largest tap is realistically a 1/2-13 form tap in aluminum. However I'm more interested in milling performance over shear tapping torque. I'm looking at the s500 b/c I need it to fit in the same floorspace as the vm5 which is about 66" wide and 100" deep. Is the CTS integrated into the coolant sump or is it a standalone reservoir and pump? If I'm coming from a cat40 machine am I going to wish I had BBT30 if I don't get it?
 

crossthread82

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
BBT is a must.
Robodrill 24k spindle is limited for constant running. Unless things have changed (I don't think they have), 18k is the limit for "no worry running".
I will add that I originally had problems with swarf getting onto the taper during toolchanges on my Robos. Running 14mm dia MA Ford 3flute knuckle cutters at S10000 F5000 throws chips everywhere.
I had the PLCs changed so when the machines toolchanged, they paused for a second 50mm above the completion of cycle, to allow the spindle air blast to ensure the taper was clean. This cured 99.99% of all problems but was not a Fanuc approved modification.
Their answer is an expensive coolant wash system, but you need micron filtration, otherwise you're washing chips onto the holder taper.

Brother is more rigid than a Robo.
If you're mostly prototyping, then I take it there's a lot of downtime for set-ups and changeovers/fixtures etc?
Therefore, I wouldn't worry about highest revs, and with the steel that you occasionally cut, I'd be going for the 16k spindle.
Not sure how or if there's a problem with swarf on the taper of these machines.
There's an army here who have them and love them and for good reason.

If money is not a problem, I'd be looking at the R650X2.
Bigger travel, 40 tool, and twin pallet.
This way you can have a nice size tool library leaving tools set in the machine, and have 2x tables so you can leave say vices on one pallet, and chick or fixture system set on the other.

Yes most of our time is spent programming and setting jobs up. I would like the r650 but I don't have the space for one. When I say I have 66"x100" to work with that is it. You don't have any issue with power or rigidity using a 1/2 chipbreaker endmill in your robo? (I'm assuming by your post you have 24k).
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Thanks Ian. One thing though, the 27k does have BBT (Big Plus) available. 27k does not have CTS available.
OP, the Speedios are heavier, quicker and more stable machines with more configurations available, such as W1000, R pallet machines and M mill/turn machines. Many people feel the Brother control is more user friendly and appreciate the 100Mb or 500Mb standard memory. Spindle choice for me is based on what is the largest drill and tap you anticipate in what materials. 10k High Torque can handle 1.5" drill in mild steel, the 16k about 3/4" depending on the efficiency of the drill. Since you mentioned S500X2, those are stocked in the USA as a 10K rpm 14 Tool 'base', the 10K High Torque 21 Tool CTSI package or 16K 21 tool CTSI package machines. 27k is not stocked in USA as a S500, only S700X2. 27K is factory order on S300 and S500 in USA. 16k CTSI are the most popular. Do you have a local contact? Let me know if you need any assistance getting in touch with your local rep.

Whoops guess I was wrong my salesman told me it was not available. I woulda insisted on it if I knew it was an option
 

barbter

Diamond
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
On Tour...
Yes most of our time is spent programming and setting jobs up. I would like the r650 but I don't have the space for one. When I say I have 66"x100" to work with that is it. You don't have any issue with power or rigidity using a 1/2 chipbreaker endmill in your robo? (I'm assuming by your post you have 24k).

Power and rigidity wasn't a prob with 1/2 cutters and highspeed trochoidal toolpaths.
I had 14mm diameter cutters - that was maximum size that was happy in the machine. These were 10k spindle. I don't have any machines now - sold the business.
 

BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
Frank,

Our largest tap is realistically a 1/2-13 form tap in aluminum. However I'm more interested in milling performance over shear tapping torque. I'm looking at the s500 b/c I need it to fit in the same floorspace as the vm5 which is about 66" wide and 100" deep. Is the CTS integrated into the coolant sump or is it a standalone reservoir and pump? If I'm coming from a cat40 machine am I going to wish I had BBT30 if I don't get it?

I get the floor space requirement. The S500 is about 60" wide x 84" deep including coolant tank. Here is a link of a typical cut I do in 6061 on a standard, not BBT, Brother:

https://youtu.be/TPrC9f4bsMw

1/2" Hanita 3 flute knuckle rougher, 1.25" deep, .300" stepover at 220 IPM. If budget is not a big concern, get the BBT option. It comes with a pressurized, filtered coolant wash at the spindle face too. The CtSI package machines come prepped for CTS but the high pressure pump is optional. Nice thing though is the optional cts pump sits on the coolant tank so doesn't take extra floor space. Sounds like the 16k 21 tool machine would be a good fit for you.
 

crossthread82

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
I get the floor space requirement. The S500 is about 60" wide x 84" deep including coolant tank. Here is a link of a typical cut I do in 6061 on a standard, not BBT, Brother:

https://youtu.be/TPrC9f4bsMw

1/2" Hanita 3 flute knuckle rougher, 1.25" deep, .300" stepover at 220 IPM. If budget is not a big concern, get the BBT option. It comes with a pressurized, filtered coolant wash at the spindle face too. The CtSI package machines come prepped for CTS but the high pressure pump is optional. Nice thing though is the optional cts pump sits on the coolant tank so doesn't take extra floor space. Sounds like the 16k 21 tool machine would be a good fit for you.

That's an impressive cut for sure. I noticed the s500 has less z travel than the robo, how much space is between the spindle and the table at top of travel? I also noticed that the new W1000Xd1 offers 8k tapping with the 16k spindle but the s500 doesn't, why is that? If I have this thing about 24" off of the wall behind it am I going to have enough room to get the chip tray out?
 

Pete Deal

Stainless
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Morgantown, WV
If money is not a problem, I'd be looking at the R650X2.
Bigger travel, 40 tool, and twin pallet.
This way you can have a nice size tool library leaving tools set in the machine, and have 2x tables so you can leave say vices on one pallet, and chick or fixture system set on the other.

I have two Brothers. Very happy with my S1000 for this type application. I understand space wouldn’t permit this size for the op but the table size makes it a versatile machine for me. I would think, don’t have first hand experience though, that setting up an R650 for small jobs would be awkward compared to the others. If I could grow some of my stuff in volume I’d love to have one but I don’t envision it as a small job machine.
 

BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
That's an impressive cut for sure. I noticed the s500 has less z travel than the robo, how much space is between the spindle and the table at top of travel? I also noticed that the new W1000Xd1 offers 8k tapping with the 16k spindle but the s500 doesn't, why is that? If I have this thing about 24" off of the wall behind it am I going to have enough room to get the chip tray out?

You have a good eye for detail and spotted an error on the Yamazen website regarding the W1000 specifications. It has 6000 max rpm tapping on 10k or 16k spindles. The S series machine with 27k spindles have 8000 rpm max tapping. I will notify the marketing dept. The spindle face to table distance at the top of the stroke is about 18.9" on the S and W models. 24" behind the machine will be plenty to pull out the chip tray. It takes about 5 or 6" to get it out from the machine.
 

Pete Deal

Stainless
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Morgantown, WV
Another thing that rarely gets mentioned in these discussions is replacement parts- particularly spindles. Before I bought a new machine I checked the price on a new spindle. My first Brother was a clapped out older machine and the spindle was smooth sounding but had what i thought was too much run-out so I replaced it. It was $2500 and 2+ hours work for me and I never did it before. When I bought my S1000 I priced the replacement spindle (16k TSC) and it was $8K ish. Having to buy a new one would be a bad few months for me. I think having to replace a spindle on an Okuma would be a bad few years for me. Local guy here replaced one on an Okuma and I think he had $45k in it.

Also regarding service- On my old machine the y axis servo amp crapped out. I called Yamazen and they didn't have one on the shelf. A replacement was drop shipped from Japan and I had it in just over a week and I didn't pay any extra. Pretty impressive. Also, I replaced it myself which saved a bunch.

Relating to Brother spindles again- as far as I know, at least up to the 16k spindles, no experience with the 27k, they are designed to live at max speed. None of this "careful how much you run it at top speed" stuff I've seen mentioned for other mfr's.

For the amazing cuts with big cutters they show on the promotional videos- I pay no attention to that for my work. I'm not running parts where the cycles are optimized for all the perfect tooling, speeds/feeds, etc. For low quantity work I am very conservative on all these items.
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
With most spindles you rebuild them, but Brother only sells replacement spindles. I am willing to bet the Okuma could have been properly rebuilt for under $10k. More money but also more spindle, go figure.

A real limitation for drill/tap mills is that the spindles may not get close enough to the table to mount the vise to it and still reach your parts with stubbie tool holders. Some Brother spindle noses stop 10" from the table.
 

Pete Deal

Stainless
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Location
Morgantown, WV
A real limitation for drill/tap mills is that the spindles may not get close enough to the table to mount the vise to it and still reach your parts with stubbie tool holders. Some Brother spindle noses stop 10" from the table.

This is a consideration but not a big issue. These 1-1/4" blocks have me within reach of the shortest stubby tool holders.

File_000 (9).jpg
 

crossthread82

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
With most spindles you rebuild them, but Brother only sells replacement spindles. I am willing to bet the Okuma could have been properly rebuilt for under $10k. More money but also more spindle, go figure.

A real limitation for drill/tap mills is that the spindles may not get close enough to the table to mount the vise to it and still reach your parts with stubbie tool holders. Some Brother spindle noses stop 10" from the table.

It looks like the s series machines are about 7" assuming you're not running a column riser. If I remember correctly a orange/kurt vise is around 5" tall. In our cat40 machines most tool gauge lengths are over 3" so that wouldn't be an issue. Are most people running ultra stubby holders in the speedio that are less than 2-3"?

I was looking around at holders for bt30 and it seems like there's a pretty good selection in the rego powergrip line since we are already pretty invested in those. We also have an assortment of schunk hydro holders and rego ER holders. I am disappointed that schunk doesn't make their tendo es line in bt30, those stub hydro holders are pretty impressive.
 

crossthread82

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
You have a good eye for detail and spotted an error on the Yamazen website regarding the W1000 specifications. It has 6000 max rpm tapping on 10k or 16k spindles. The S series machine with 27k spindles have 8000 rpm max tapping. I will notify the marketing dept. The spindle face to table distance at the top of the stroke is about 18.9" on the S and W models. 24" behind the machine will be plenty to pull out the chip tray. It takes about 5 or 6" to get it out from the machine.

Is there a possibility of brother offering full simultaneous 5 axis in the near future? I know the machines are capable of it but are limited to 4+1. And for rotary 4 axis applications do they support centerline compensation (DWO) and tool center point control? I didn't realize how nice having that was until I had it, now if I have to shift things in mastercam b/c my part is off center it seems like an unnecessary PIA.
 

BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
It looks like the s series machines are about 7" assuming you're not running a column riser. If I remember correctly a orange/kurt vise is around 5" tall. In our cat40 machines most tool gauge lengths are over 3" so that wouldn't be an issue. Are most people running ultra stubby holders in the speedio that are less than 2-3"?

I was looking around at holders for bt30 and it seems like there's a pretty good selection in the rego powergrip line since we are already pretty invested in those. We also have an assortment of schunk hydro holders and rego ER holders. I am disappointed that schunk doesn't make their tendo es line in bt30, those stub hydro holders are pretty impressive.

You have a good handle on the tool holders. ER are my typical goto workhorse. A lot of people, including myself, like a side lock end mill holder for roughing. Especially, for 3/8 and larger roughers. You are right, a vise that is 5" tall doesn't need a riser under it on a standard S series machine. Regofix has a ER32 bt30 that is around 50mm gage length. I like those. For ER16 and under I like longer gage lengths around 70-80mm. It gives you something to hold on to when loading in the magazine. Schunk are excellent. Maritool has very stubby sidelock end mill holders that are nice.
Brother machines are 4+1 capable. Nothing that I know of for full 5. Brother supports G68.2 Fixture Coordinate setting and G54.2 Rotary Fixture offsets.
 

crossthread82

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
You have a good handle on the tool holders. ER are my typical goto workhorse. A lot of people, including myself, like a side lock end mill holder for roughing. Especially, for 3/8 and larger roughers. You are right, a vise that is 5" tall doesn't need a riser under it on a standard S series machine. Regofix has a ER32 bt30 that is around 50mm gage length. I like those. For ER16 and under I like longer gage lengths around 70-80mm. It gives you something to hold on to when loading in the magazine. Schunk are excellent. Maritool has very stubby sidelock end mill holders that are nice.
Brother machines are 4+1 capable. Nothing that I know of for full 5. Brother supports G68.2 Fixture Coordinate setting and G54.2 Rotary Fixture offsets.

Thanks for all the info. A brother capable of full 5th with a tilting rotary would be an impressive package. Is there any way to get the power charts for the different spindles? The raw numbers on the website are kind of hard to quantify.
 








 
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