Is there a possibility of brother offering full simultaneous 5 axis in the near future?
I heard a rumor that if you go to IMTS you might see something 5 axis by Brother.
Is there a possibility of brother offering full simultaneous 5 axis in the near future?
Hi all,
I'm looking to upgrade two Hurco Vm5's to something newer and faster that has the same footprint. Currently the Vm5 is (18x14x14)has tool and spindle probe and has a 8k cat40 spindle. Quite honestly its slow and lacking in the hp and rigidity department. We are mostly a prototype shop making ones and twos of things out off aluminum, delrin, copper; rarely some 303/304 and 1018. But do get the occasional batch of about 150 parts. We have a large budget so cost isn't a factor, we strictly want the best machine.
I think I've narrowed it down to two options, either a Brother Speedio S500x2 or a Robodrill D21MiB5adv. I'd like the new machine to have TSC but it's not a deal breaker. Other than that I'm not sure how to spec either machine. For the speedio 10k, 16k or 27k? Robodrill 10k or 24k? How does the rigidity compare between the two? Can either of them push a 3/8 or 1/2 alumigator endmill to its max? Should I get the BBT30 spindle in the speedio? Am I making a mistake going from cat40 to bt30?
Any insight from people with experience using either or both machines is appreciated.
The air through operations and extra M codes? Get a spindle gripper and KSP vise and you now have the ability to do very flexible lights-out automation. Seriously- once you see a spindle gripper working, you realize that serious mill automation is readily available for under $7k, and it will do 90% of what a $100,000 robot arm setup would do. And those spindle grippers are so flexible that even 100 part runs can be automated.
What you wind up with is a free and clear S700 size of table space on one end of the machine, with a compact 4+1 setup on the other and with enough breathing room one side of the machine can be set-up totally different from the other. Fist size components can go 5 axis and be made very quickly, or you can do pallets of 3 axis work or fairly large components - all at the same time.
If I were buying a new machine today, and I was doing a mix of prototype and production, the answer is a W1000 with a 5 axis trunnion on one side of the table. Along with BBT, coolant prep, lights, etc type options, I would have Yamazen fit a few M controlled air solenoids and order the 5 axis table with air through.
What you wind up with is a free and clear S700 size of table space on one end of the machine, with a compact 4+1 setup on the other and with enough breathing room one side of the machine can be set-up totally different from the other. Fist size components can go 5 axis and be made very quickly, or you can do pallets of 3 axis work or fairly large components - all at the same time. The air through operations and extra M codes? Get a spindle gripper and KSP vise and you now have the ability to do very flexible lights-out automation. Seriously- once you see a spindle gripper working, you realize that serious mill automation is readily available for under $7k, and it will do 90% of what a $100,000 robot arm setup would do. And those spindle grippers are so flexible that even 100 part runs can be automated.
The machine nerd in me is going to buy the Speedio 5 axis when it comes out, but if I was an actually practical person concerned about maximizing ROI, the W1000+5th would be the clear winner.
I'd love to know more about this... I rarely do more than 100 parts at a time, but I have never seen or understood how it could be economical to setup and run 100 parts automated.
From the guys that I have seen who do this it seems like it takes a lot more than 100 parts just to get the process dialed in... ? Maybe we are just not as smart/capable as you?
I'd love a w1000 but I simply don't have the floorspace for it. I think an s500 with a yukiwa TNT100 would still leave enough room for a vise next to it. But I'm looking at spec sheets online and haven't seen one in front of me. Does the listed 300mm z travel include the tool changer range of motion? (i.e. actual usable z travel is less than 300mm). More than likely I'm going to end up with (2) s500x2 one with a rotary of some kind and one without. Both with all the options available except for CTS if I go with the 27k spindle. Which is the main thing that I'm undecided on. IDK if I should get one with the 16k and CTS and one with 27k, or 10kHT and 16k both w/ CTS. Or if I should just make both of them the same.
300mm is the working travel of the machine, Brother doesn't cheat you by counting the tool-change travels.
So the Robodrill 24k spindle is not great. It has the well-earned reputation for not being reliable when running at max RPM all day. Some Fanuc people have told people I trust that the problem is the gear drive on the spindle nose for the tool-changer; that part starts to get a little wear on it to bring the whole system just out of balance. Brother has had servo driven turrets for at least 2 generation now, and the newer Robodrill ADV models are servo driven. If that will fix the 24k spindle rating is unknown. Even so, the 24k is sort of a gutless wonder.
For low-volume stuff, IDK if I would get the 27k Brother spindle. Once you get above 20k, you are in the world of a whole new class of tool-holding and balancing to really get the most out of it. On a production machine where the ROI can be run? That is entirely possible, but for low-volume stuff? I don't know if it is worth it and it is one of those questions that can only be answered by looking at your general workload with a fine-toothed comb. Personally, I think the 16k is the most flexible option and they are as reliable as a spindle can possibly be. Also very dependent on just how important TSC is for you and your application.
My main draw to the 27k for me; is it seems from the little bit of reading that I've done that the 27k has more available torque above 10k rpm vs the 16k spindle. I however haven't actual seen the power curve charts to confirm that. Tool balance isn't a huge concern for me since I'd be outfitting the machine with all regofix powergrip holders and or schunk hydro's which both are balanced to [email protected] for bt30/bbt30 holders. I've pretty much ruled a robo out at this point since the consensus says the brother is a better more ridged machine. Granted I have other machines in the shop that have some serious balls if I have a job that I really need/want to push it (One of those is due for an upgrade in the near future as well). These machines would be replacing two VM5's that quite frankly suck in every measurable category besides maybe ease of use.
Well, like anything else in this ballgame... it depends!
Configuring the gripper for Op1 stuff from raw square blanks is relatively easy.
Picking up an Op2 part and running it reliably is a different matter that requires way more fiddling. Trying to flip an Op1 part into Op2 in the same setup is trickier still.
In the end, you are entirely correct that - for the most part - setting up any sort of automation for 100 parts is probably not a great ROI, but this is entirely cycle-time dependent. Small aluminum bits with 2 minute times? Silly. The 6al-4V parts I'm running right now where Op1 is 12 minutes? Yea, I need to set my machine up with a spindle gripper ASAP. Even if I just got out of standing here for Op1, it would be a huge time saver.
The flips are what I can't figure out.
Whoops guess I was wrong my salesman told me it was not available. I woulda insisted on it if I knew it was an option
I was told the same thing at one point about BBT not being available on the 27K spindles. This was a few years back when Yamazen still had a local distributor we bought from. Has this always been the case, or was my salesman just trying to sell me a machine that was in stock?
Since the S700 series, you could add a BBT to all the different RPM's. However, running high speed and BBT is not recommended. The growth of the spindle not just down but out in a bell fashion, could lead to minor gapping of the bottom of the taper where it meets the face. This could allow some concentricity issues in the right circumstances. The rule of thumb is, BBT is good under 12,000, or when a very long tool is needed for drilling or reaming. For most tools over 15,000, you are much better to use non BBT holders for those applications. Letting the tool and taper to work together, moving up and in. This gives you the least run out. The nice thing about a machine with BBT is that you can run either type. So, you could have ordered a BBT, (we would have switched the spindle out and added face cleaning) and if you ever need a new spindle, this is still an option.
Since the S700 series, you could add a BBT to all the different RPM's. However, running high speed and BBT is not recommended. The growth of the spindle not just down but out in a bell fashion, could lead to minor gapping of the bottom of the taper where it meets the face. This could allow some concentricity issues in the right circumstances. The rule of thumb is, BBT is good under 12,000, or when a very long tool is needed for drilling or reaming. For most tools over 15,000, you are much better to use non BBT holders for those applications. Letting the tool and taper to work together, moving up and in. This gives you the least run out. The nice thing about a machine with BBT is that you can run either type. So, you could have ordered a BBT, (we would have switched the spindle out and added face cleaning) and if you ever need a new spindle, this is still an option.
Thanks for that information. We were just told it was not an option. I'm beginning to suspect it was just because they were selling a stock machine.
How about this, if you have a 4th axis with a pneumatic vise, say the vise is situated so the part is at the top at 0 degrees. What if you unload the part at 90 degrees in the Y direction, then index to 270 degrees and reload the part in the opposite Y direction? Actually the same Y direction on the opposite side of the rotary! There are also some pneumatic grippers (Schunk...) that do a 180. Put the part in the 'flipper', have it do a 180 and regrip the part...
Crossthread, I sent you a Private Message.
How about this, if you have a 4th axis with a pneumatic vise, say the vise is situated so the part is at the top at 0 degrees. What if you unload the part at 90 degrees in the Y direction, then index to 270 degrees and reload the part in the opposite Y direction? Actually the same Y direction on the opposite side of the rotary! There are also some pneumatic grippers (Schunk...) that do a 180. Put the part in the 'flipper', have it do a 180 and regrip the part...
Crossthread, I sent you a Private Message.
Are the S series machines going to be upgraded to the D-00 control that comes on the W1000?