Speedio vs Robodrill to upgrade existing VMC

[gkoenig]

If I were buying a new machine today, and I was doing a mix of prototype and production, the answer is a W1000 with a 5 axis trunnion on one side of the table. Along with BBT, coolant prep, lights, etc type options, I would have Yamazen fit a few M controlled air solenoids and order the 5 axis table with air through.

What you wind up with is a free and clear S700 size of table space on one end of the machine, with a compact 4+1 setup on the other and with enough breathing room one side of the machine can be set-up totally different from the other. Fist size components can go 5 axis and be made very quickly, or you can do pallets of 3 axis work or fairly large components - all at the same time. The air through operations and extra M codes? Get a spindle gripper and KSP vise and you now have the ability to do very flexible lights-out automation. Seriously- once you see a spindle gripper working, you realize that serious mill automation is readily available for under $7k, and it will do 90% of what a $100,000 robot arm setup would do. And those spindle grippers are so flexible that even 100 part runs can be automated.

The machine nerd in me is going to buy the Speedio 5 axis when it comes out, but if I was an actually practical person concerned about maximizing ROI, the W1000+5th would be the clear winner.

 

[Fal Grunt]

The air through operations and extra M codes? Get a spindle gripper and KSP vise and you now have the ability to do very flexible lights-out automation. Seriously- once you see a spindle gripper working, you realize that serious mill automation is readily available for under $7k, and it will do 90% of what a $100,000 robot arm setup would do. And those spindle grippers are so flexible that even 100 part runs can be automated.

I'd love to know more about this... I rarely do more than 100 parts at a time, but I have never seen or understood how it could be economical to setup and run 100 parts automated.

From the guys that I have seen who do this it seems like it takes a lot more than 100 parts just to get the process dialed in... ? Maybe we are just not as smart/capable as you?

 

[TKassoc]

What you wind up with is a free and clear S700 size of table space on one end of the machine, with a compact 4+1 setup on the other and with enough breathing room one side of the machine can be set-up totally different from the other. Fist size components can go 5 axis and be made very quickly, or you can do pallets of 3 axis work or fairly large components - all at the same time.

That's pretty much what I was thinking when I put a Koma RTT-111 table on my 40x20 VMC. While I thought it was going to be the ultimate in versatility (Erowa ITS-50/100 interface so I can swap work-holding) it mostly hindered the versatility of my mill as a 3-axis. It all depends on your mix of parts but I've had the table be in the way for big 3-axis parts more often than the 5-axis table has been handy. So for my work a dedicated 5-axis and a dedicated 3-axis are much more useful...YMMV.

 

[crossthread82]

If I were buying a new machine today, and I was doing a mix of prototype and production, the answer is a W1000 with a 5 axis trunnion on one side of the table. Along with BBT, coolant prep, lights, etc type options, I would have Yamazen fit a few M controlled air solenoids and order the 5 axis table with air through.

What you wind up with is a free and clear S700 size of table space on one end of the machine, with a compact 4+1 setup on the other and with enough breathing room one side of the machine can be set-up totally different from the other. Fist size components can go 5 axis and be made very quickly, or you can do pallets of 3 axis work or fairly large components - all at the same time. The air through operations and extra M codes? Get a spindle gripper and KSP vise and you now have the ability to do very flexible lights-out automation. Seriously- once you see a spindle gripper working, you realize that serious mill automation is readily available for under $7k, and it will do 90% of what a $100,000 robot arm setup would do. And those spindle grippers are so flexible that even 100 part runs can be automated.

The machine nerd in me is going to buy the Speedio 5 axis when it comes out, but if I was an actually practical person concerned about maximizing ROI, the W1000+5th would be the clear winner.

I'd love a w1000 but I simply don't have the floorspace for it. I think an s500 with a yukiwa TNT100 would still leave enough room for a vise next to it. But I'm looking at spec sheets online and haven't seen one in front of me. Does the listed 300mm z travel include the tool changer range of motion? (i.e. actual usable z travel is less than 300mm). More than likely I'm going to end up with (2) s500x2 one with a rotary of some kind and one without. Both with all the options available except for CTS if I go with the 27k spindle. Which is the main thing that I'm undecided on. IDK if I should get one with the 16k and CTS and one with 27k, or 10kHT and 16k both w/ CTS. Or if I should just make both of them the same.

 

[gkoenig]

I'd love to know more about this... I rarely do more than 100 parts at a time, but I have never seen or understood how it could be economical to setup and run 100 parts automated.

From the guys that I have seen who do this it seems like it takes a lot more than 100 parts just to get the process dialed in... ? Maybe we are just not as smart/capable as you?

Well, like anything else in this ballgame... it depends!

Configuring the gripper for Op1 stuff from raw square blanks is relatively easy.

Picking up an Op2 part and running it reliably is a different matter that requires way more fiddling. Trying to flip an Op1 part into Op2 in the same setup is trickier still.

In the end, you are entirely correct that - for the most part - setting up any sort of automation for 100 parts is probably not a great ROI, but this is entirely cycle-time dependent. Small aluminum bits with 2 minute times? Silly. The 6al-4V parts I'm running right now where Op1 is 12 minutes? Yea, I need to set my machine up with a spindle gripper ASAP. Even if I just got out of standing here for Op1, it would be a huge time saver.

 

[gkoenig]

I'd love a w1000 but I simply don't have the floorspace for it. I think an s500 with a yukiwa TNT100 would still leave enough room for a vise next to it. But I'm looking at spec sheets online and haven't seen one in front of me. Does the listed 300mm z travel include the tool changer range of motion? (i.e. actual usable z travel is less than 300mm). More than likely I'm going to end up with (2) s500x2 one with a rotary of some kind and one without. Both with all the options available except for CTS if I go with the 27k spindle. Which is the main thing that I'm undecided on. IDK if I should get one with the 16k and CTS and one with 27k, or 10kHT and 16k both w/ CTS. Or if I should just make both of them the same.

300mm is the working travel of the machine, Brother doesn't cheat you by counting the tool-change travels.

So the Robodrill 24k spindle is not great. It has the well-earned reputation for not being reliable when running at max RPM all day. Some Fanuc people have told people I trust that the problem is the gear drive on the spindle nose for the tool-changer; that part starts to get a little wear on it to bring the whole system just out of balance. Brother has had servo driven turrets for at least 2 generation now, and the newer Robodrill ADV models are servo driven. If that will fix the 24k spindle rating is unknown. Even so, the 24k is sort of a gutless wonder.

For low-volume stuff, IDK if I would get the 27k Brother spindle. Once you get above 20k, you are in the world of a whole new class of tool-holding and balancing to really get the most out of it. On a production machine where the ROI can be run? That is entirely possible, but for low-volume stuff? I don't know if it is worth it and it is one of those questions that can only be answered by looking at your general workload with a fine-toothed comb. Personally, I think the 16k is the most flexible option and they are as reliable as a spindle can possibly be. Also very dependent on just how important TSC is for you and your application.

 

[crossthread82]

300mm is the working travel of the machine, Brother doesn't cheat you by counting the tool-change travels.

So the Robodrill 24k spindle is not great. It has the well-earned reputation for not being reliable when running at max RPM all day. Some Fanuc people have told people I trust that the problem is the gear drive on the spindle nose for the tool-changer; that part starts to get a little wear on it to bring the whole system just out of balance. Brother has had servo driven turrets for at least 2 generation now, and the newer Robodrill ADV models are servo driven. If that will fix the 24k spindle rating is unknown. Even so, the 24k is sort of a gutless wonder.

For low-volume stuff, IDK if I would get the 27k Brother spindle. Once you get above 20k, you are in the world of a whole new class of tool-holding and balancing to really get the most out of it. On a production machine where the ROI can be run? That is entirely possible, but for low-volume stuff? I don't know if it is worth it and it is one of those questions that can only be answered by looking at your general workload with a fine-toothed comb. Personally, I think the 16k is the most flexible option and they are as reliable as a spindle can possibly be. Also very dependent on just how important TSC is for you and your application.

My main draw to the 27k for me; is it seems from the little bit of reading that I've done that the 27k has more available torque above 10k rpm vs the 16k spindle. I however haven't actual seen the power curve charts to confirm that. Tool balance isn't a huge concern for me since I'd be outfitting the machine with all regofix powergrip holders and or schunk hydro's which both are balanced to G2.5@30k for bt30/bbt30 holders. I've pretty much ruled a robo out at this point since the consensus says the brother is a better more ridged machine. Granted I have other machines in the shop that have some serious balls if I have a job that I really need/want to push it (One of those is due for an upgrade in the near future as well). These machines would be replacing two VM5's that quite frankly suck in every measurable category besides maybe ease of use.

 

[Ianagos]

My main draw to the 27k for me; is it seems from the little bit of reading that I've done that the 27k has more available torque above 10k rpm vs the 16k spindle. I however haven't actual seen the power curve charts to confirm that. Tool balance isn't a huge concern for me since I'd be outfitting the machine with all regofix powergrip holders and or schunk hydro's which both are balanced to G2.5@30k for bt30/bbt30 holders. I've pretty much ruled a robo out at this point since the consensus says the brother is a better more ridged machine. Granted I have other machines in the shop that have some serious balls if I have a job that I really need/want to push it (One of those is due for an upgrade in the near future as well). These machines would be replacing two VM5's that quite frankly suck in every measurable category besides maybe ease of use.

I can’t attest to the torque of the 27k spindle but I don’t think the balance is a huge deal we run schunk tendo hydraulic holders at 25k with no issues. They are one of the cheapest hydraulic bt30 out there that I found. I didn’t include anything Chinese in my search though.

Also have maritool 2” and maritool 3” apkt facemills at 8000rpm and 6000rpm.

That spindle accelerates fast we run a 90second cycle on 6 parts with 3 tool changes.
Once you learn the slight code changes for the brother it will change tools while rapidding to the next parts and there are low accuracy options to turn it up even faster

 

[Fal Grunt]

Well, like anything else in this ballgame... it depends!

Configuring the gripper for Op1 stuff from raw square blanks is relatively easy.

Picking up an Op2 part and running it reliably is a different matter that requires way more fiddling. Trying to flip an Op1 part into Op2 in the same setup is trickier still.

In the end, you are entirely correct that - for the most part - setting up any sort of automation for 100 parts is probably not a great ROI, but this is entirely cycle-time dependent. Small aluminum bits with 2 minute times? Silly. The 6al-4V parts I'm running right now where Op1 is 12 minutes? Yea, I need to set my machine up with a spindle gripper ASAP. Even if I just got out of standing here for Op1, it would be a huge time saver.

The flips are what I can't figure out.

 

[BROTHERFRANK]

The flips are what I can't figure out.

How about this, if you have a 4th axis with a pneumatic vise, say the vise is situated so the part is at the top at 0 degrees. What if you unload the part at 90 degrees in the Y direction, then index to 270 degrees and reload the part in the opposite Y direction? Actually the same Y direction on the opposite side of the rotary ! There are also some pneumatic grippers (Schunk...) that do a 180. Put the part in the 'flipper', have it do a 180 and regrip the part...

Crossthread, I sent you a Private Message.

 

[70olds]

Whoops guess I was wrong my salesman told me it was not available. I woulda insisted on it if I knew it was an option

I was told the same thing at one point about BBT not being available on the 27K spindles. This was a few years back when Yamazen still had a local distributor we bought from. Has this always been the case, or was my salesman just trying to sell me a machine that was in stock?

 

[2outof3]

I was told the same thing at one point about BBT not being available on the 27K spindles. This was a few years back when Yamazen still had a local distributor we bought from. Has this always been the case, or was my salesman just trying to sell me a machine that was in stock?

Since the S700 series, you could add a BBT to all the different RPM's. However, running high speed and BBT is not recommended. The growth of the spindle not just down but out in a bell fashion, could lead to minor gapping of the bottom of the taper where it meets the face. This could allow some concentricity issues in the right circumstances. The rule of thumb is, BBT is good under 12,000, or when a very long tool is needed for drilling or reaming. For most tools over 15,000, you are much better to use non BBT holders for those applications. Letting the tool and taper to work together, moving up and in. This gives you the least run out. The nice thing about a machine with BBT is that you can run either type. So, you could have ordered a BBT, (we would have switched the spindle out and added face cleaning) and if you ever need a new spindle, this is still an option.

 

[Ianagos]

Since the S700 series, you could add a BBT to all the different RPM's. However, running high speed and BBT is not recommended. The growth of the spindle not just down but out in a bell fashion, could lead to minor gapping of the bottom of the taper where it meets the face. This could allow some concentricity issues in the right circumstances. The rule of thumb is, BBT is good under 12,000, or when a very long tool is needed for drilling or reaming. For most tools over 15,000, you are much better to use non BBT holders for those applications. Letting the tool and taper to work together, moving up and in. This gives you the least run out. The nice thing about a machine with BBT is that you can run either type. So, you could have ordered a BBT, (we would have switched the spindle out and added face cleaning) and if you ever need a new spindle, this is still an option.

We would have wanted it just for the lower rpm facemills but turns out we don’t need it. The other reason I wanted it is for the better cleaning of the tools.

Ours doesn’t cut metal so we get a ton of dust in well everything. It’s a pain to clean. Definitely get stuff packed up in the spindle and it has to be cleaned max every 5 days. Better if it’s every couple.

Wish there was a graphite package or something like that available. Gonna be peeling back the waycovers soon aswell to see the damage(I don’t think it’s damaged I just mean filth)

 

[70olds]

Since the S700 series, you could add a BBT to all the different RPM's. However, running high speed and BBT is not recommended. The growth of the spindle not just down but out in a bell fashion, could lead to minor gapping of the bottom of the taper where it meets the face. This could allow some concentricity issues in the right circumstances. The rule of thumb is, BBT is good under 12,000, or when a very long tool is needed for drilling or reaming. For most tools over 15,000, you are much better to use non BBT holders for those applications. Letting the tool and taper to work together, moving up and in. This gives you the least run out. The nice thing about a machine with BBT is that you can run either type. So, you could have ordered a BBT, (we would have switched the spindle out and added face cleaning) and if you ever need a new spindle, this is still an option.

Thanks for that information. We were just told it was not an option. I'm beginning to suspect it was just because they were selling a stock machine.

 

[2outof3]

Thanks for that information. We were just told it was not an option. I'm beginning to suspect it was just because they were selling a stock machine.

We would have added it if it was requested by the dealer. We do not stock the 16k or 27k S series machines with BBT but replace the standard spindles at installation if the customer wants an upgrade to BBT on those models. That also involves switching from air blast around the taper for cleaning the spindle and tool before seating to the face wash system that is much more involved. Brother will not add BBT without face wash.

 

[crossthread82]

How about this, if you have a 4th axis with a pneumatic vise, say the vise is situated so the part is at the top at 0 degrees. What if you unload the part at 90 degrees in the Y direction, then index to 270 degrees and reload the part in the opposite Y direction? Actually the same Y direction on the opposite side of the rotary ! There are also some pneumatic grippers (Schunk...) that do a 180. Put the part in the 'flipper', have it do a 180 and regrip the part...

Crossthread, I sent you a Private Message.

Are the S series machines going to be upgraded to the D-00 control that comes on the W1000?

 

[Fal Grunt]

How about this, if you have a 4th axis with a pneumatic vise, say the vise is situated so the part is at the top at 0 degrees. What if you unload the part at 90 degrees in the Y direction, then index to 270 degrees and reload the part in the opposite Y direction? Actually the same Y direction on the opposite side of the rotary ! There are also some pneumatic grippers (Schunk...) that do a 180. Put the part in the 'flipper', have it do a 180 and regrip the part...

Crossthread, I sent you a Private Message.

That could be a possibility, but buying a $16k 4th (plus required subplate, install, etc), then $7k in automation (not sure what all would be on gkoenigs list?) accounts for a lot of time running the machine. Trying to pay that off running 50-150 pc part runs is a hard ROI to justify.

 

[BROTHERFRANK]

Are the S series machines going to be upgraded to the D-00 control that comes on the W1000?

My best guess is they are probably a year away from that. They just upgraded the S machines from X1 to X2 after 6 years...

 

[Matt@RFR]

My best guess is they are probably a year away from that. They just upgraded the S machines from X1 to X2 after 6 years...

I hope D00 falls on its face and never happens, or stays on option.

Just like Haas... Take a control that is super easy to use and there are tons of them out there and make wholesale changes.

And a touch screen? Really? Did a single shop complain about how the knobs and buttons on the C00 work?

One of the reasons I keep buying Brothers is because they are just like a race car. Everything on them has a purpose. There's no fluff. No stupid graphics or video games or dxf translators or any other marketing bullshit, they are simple and just work all day every day. But now with the touch screen D00 I get this nasty feeling in my gut that the marketing department has taken over.

 

[bosmos_j]

And a touch screen? Really? Did a single shop complain about how the knobs and buttons on the C00 work?

Long ago I worked for an electronics company. Touchscreens were a big money saver. Buttons that can cycle millions of times reliably cost money. If it already has a screen, adding touch screen isn't a huge jump, so the net is money saved. Not a fan myself.