Speedio W1000XD1 rigidity/capability in 4140HT....Oh, and chip handling in 6061

[david n]

Yeah yeah yeah.........I know they can cut steel.........that's not my question here. I mill lots of steel parts on my 500.............I'm lookin at bringing in another Bro(1000) and I have a particular part that may be problematic. I want to know from real world situations if it'll do it. And I mean do it it well...........like my Haas can "hog" steel, but not well.......................

So I have a pile 'o parts I make every few months. Basically a turned slug of 4140HT...............clamped vertically in a vise. Very rigid setup...............now I need to mill at 1.5" DOC around the periphery......I can run HS toolpaths............but I'm a little worried runnin' 1.5"+ stick out on a 1/2 EM in this machine without it squealin' and cryin'...........don't think I'd want or even could to go with a 5/8"?.........will the Big Plus spindle make all my dreams come true?............ right now I run a 3/4" EM in the Doosan in one pass and it just hums along like is not even cuttin'.............no issues.

Now I have a different set of parts outa 6061 that make plenty of chips.............I don't have room for a conveyor(and Brother sure doesn't give 'em away)...............I know I'll have to scope chips. What's the consensus on that? A small PITA or a huge PITA?

Here's the 4140HT part...........the larger Ø has the 1.5" LOC..............so WOC is not huge and could be done in a few rounds of HS toolpaths................

.................................

 

[Orange Vise]

Now I have a different set of parts outa 6061 that make plenty of chips.............I don't have room for a conveyor(and Brother sure doesn't give 'em away)...............I know I'll have to scope chips. What's the consensus on that? A small PITA or a huge PITA?

Huge, IMHO. We got the conveyor on our R650.

 

[GiroDyno]

We didn't get the conveyor when we bought our R650 end of last year, I'm assuming because at the time $20k seemed hard to justify considering there isn't a whole lot of material removal being done on our parts.
"It's only a few chips per part" sure, but that machine is running a lot more parts...

We are now getting quotes from Yamazen about adding the conveyor.

When (not if) the pan gets full of chips coolant can start overflowing back towards the machine where the guarding is lowest and then dumps chips straight into the tank. We scooped 55 gallons of chips out of the coolant tank last week

 

[gkoenig]

I've used a 5/8" EM in a production application - one for roughing and one for finishing, but both in 6061. they worked perfectly well however and Brother even has a couple of demos featuring 16mm end mills working in tougher materials, so it's sorta nice to have the factory blessing that it should work fine.

Not for nothing, but this is how I would do this in 3 operations with 2 tools:

Rough: 1/2" Helical 7 Flute reduced neck chipbreak rougher in a Maritool Big+ super stubby side lock. HSM the bulk of material off in 3 cut levels leaving 0.020" stock. This (and the Semi Finish strategy) are known quantities that will run all day in a Big+ Speedio.

Semi-Finish: Same tool as above, but 3 cut profiles with a very light cut to get the remaining stock down to 0.010". That is enough material for the finisher to not rub while minimizing tool pressure.

Finish: Helical 5/8" finisher with the 1-5/8" LOC, 7 Flute, A Plus coating. One pass at Helical's minimum surface speed and feed (within the tool's params though). That finisher should last forever, which is good because they aren't exactly inexpensive.

 

[Cole2534]

I don't know what you're making, but they sure look nice.

 

[Eric U]

Sorry, can’t help you on the Brother front, but that sure looks like a live tool lathe part.

 

[eaglemike]

What gkoenig said above.
I've gone to corncobs as much as possible in aluminum, and the chip volume is waaaay down. I also put some fine mesh screen from McMaster in the bottom of the chip bin so we don't have to clean everything all the way down nearly as often. Life is good. 450HT, standard 450, 700HT, and standard 500. Did them all the same. The machines are more capable than I expected.
A truly stout 40 taper will have more capability, but will also draw more power. I'm a little power limited, so that matters.
Good luck!

 

[gkoenig]

I also put some fine mesh screen from McMaster in the bottom of the chip bin so we don't have to clean everything all the way down nearly as often.

Off Topic Question: What side filter mesh did you get? I ordered some long long ago, forgot the part number, and started using it last week. I think I went too fine on the mesh because the chip bin is backing up way faster.

 

[mmurray70]

Sorry, can’t help you on the Brother front, but that sure looks like a live tool lathe part.

Probably too many tools for lathe. I see 2 drills to relieve corners, 2 tap drills, 2 taps, small endmill for inside, big endmill for outside, 2 chamfer tools (one for each side) plus your normal lathe tools of course.

This is exactly my problem whenever I think about live tool lathes. Seems like an awesome idea at first. But most times there would be countless hours setting it all up, and were talking like 30 grand worth of live tool holders.

Just put it in the mill, setup a dozen tools and in 20 mins your making good parts! Unless you get into huge quantities its hard to beat a mill for any small part with lots of tools.

 

[Pete Deal]

I agree on the corncob roughers. I pretty much use them for all roughing. I just finished a job making some parts from 303 stainless where 95% of the material is milled away. The chips are like coarse sand. Same for aluminum. And all my roughers are in the super short Maritool side lock holders.

I'm no expert by any means on this but I think I would first rough what I can reach with a standard corncob rougher then finish. At this step a little neck relief on the cutter would allow you to go a little deeper without a long reach tool. Then take a longer cutter and relieve all but the first .3" or so of cutting edge and shank as needed then step it down in .2" or .3" steps. I don't think it would be a problem with a 1/2" tool. It would be nice for the long reach step to have a tool with short flutes and a long shank with enough relief so that only .3" of the end cuts. I have a tool and cutter grinder so I can pretty easily make reduced shank tools but it shouldn't be a big deal to get someone to relieve the cutters and put some flats on the shank where you want.

Off Topic Question: What side filter mesh did you get? I ordered some long long ago, forgot the part number, and started using it last week. I think I went too fine on the mesh because the chip bin is backing up way faster.

I started down this road. My first cut at it has worked well. I got some cheap landscape filter material from Lowes. My intent was for this to be a first step and do as EagleMike did but it's worked really well. I cut it and lay it in the bottom and have some sheet metal that holds it along the sides and some 2" wide x 1/8" strap that I put along the front and back. I use spring clamps to hold the side metal and strap metal in place. Need to be a little careful in shoveling chips to not tear it but I haven't had any issue really. It does need to be replaced now and then but it's not that hard to do.

My next big idea was to get some perforated metal to put on top of the filter material. I think the holes were like .04" or something. This didn't work well. The chips got down in the holes and the coolant backed up so I'm back to just the filter material.

Generally I think you want a filter material that the chips mostly sit on top of and don't get down into the openings.

 

[Finegrain]

Off Topic Question: What side filter mesh did you get? I ordered some long long ago, forgot the part number, and started using it last week. I think I went too fine on the mesh because the chip bin is backing up way faster.

I use this:

Object moved

.024" thick steel, .032" holes. It works great, with a couple caveats:

1. Steel whiskers will fit into the holes and "lock" the pile of chips into a difficult-to-scoop mat
2. Over time, Aluminum fines will pack into the space between the machine's screen and the added screen material, and block up the drainage

You just have to take the added screen out once in awhile and clean things up.

Regards.

Mike

 

[Mtndew]

Get the conveyor, period. You'll be kicking yourself if you don't.
As for the 1-1/2" stickout....
I haven't done that in steel yet on our R450X1 but I do push a 1/2" end mill in 6061 1.280" deep to the max on both speed and width of cut. 16k rpm, 1.280 deep and 400-ish IPM with a .100" stepover. It's loud as shit but it's done tens of thousands of parts so far.
(dual contact spindle).

So I would imagine that it would easily handle a 1-1/2" stickout with a HSM path light stepover and no issues with a finishing pass at all.
What I would do is have your dealer do a demo of your part if they have a machine on their floor. Then you can know for sure.

I wouldn't chance it in a spindle that wasn't dual contact though, but that's just me.

 

[eaglemike]

Off Topic Question: What side filter mesh did you get? I ordered some long long ago, forgot the part number, and started using it last week. I think I went too fine on the mesh because the chip bin is backing up way faster.

I used McMaster 85385T96
It has .008 holes, bought 3'X3' then trimmed and sheet metal screws to hold. ETA I used some left over aluminum strip along most of the edges to help hold.
Hope this helps.
There's been times when I used dacron material just below the coolant trough as a filter when running really fine stuff. There's an upholstery place down the building that has free scraps. When it gets too full/dirty, just toss it. Works a treat, as they say.
Good luck!

 

[gkoenig]

It's loud as shit but it's done tens of thousands of parts so far.

As I've gotten into doing more titanium and tool steel type applications with larger parts, I've learned that the Speedio is just a loud cutting machine. I ran a 1.5" 10 insert Seco face mill in titanium with a tiny depth of cut (HSM Advisor said it was a .6hp cut) and everything sounded like it was about to blow up, despite the spindle load meter being at zero.

 

[trochoidalpath]

I did something like this a while back. If my notes are to be believed, on my 16K S500X1 I roughed with a Helical 1/2" 5-flute, 0.045 stepover, 1.575 DOC, left 0.006" for a finish pass (again full depth). Worked out great. If you want, I'll go pull the CAM for it.

 

[Eric U]

Probably too many tools for lathe. I see 2 drills to relieve corners, 2 tap drills, 2 taps, small endmill for inside, big endmill for outside, 2 chamfer tools (one for each side) plus your normal lathe tools of course.

This is exactly my problem whenever I think about live tool lathes. Seems like an awesome idea at first. But most times there would be countless hours setting it all up, and were talking like 30 grand worth of live tool holders.

Just put it in the mill, setup a dozen tools and in 20 mins your making good parts! Unless you get into huge quantities its hard to beat a mill for any small part with lots of tools.

Everything you said is true. I don’t know the volume the OP is running. If “a lot” I’d figure out a way to do it my way. If just “a few”, then a mill would be best. I’ve been running the same job for about 15 months now and everything looks like a bar-fed live-tool part now.

 

[Eric U]

Duplicate post.

 

[Nerdlinger]

I have a S700 dual contact I cut a similar part on…30HRC 4140 with a 1/2” em but it’s only 1-1/4” flute length / DOC. It totally works but I can’t say for that extra 1/4” you are looking for. Good luck!

 

[Mike1974]

Everything you said is true. I don’t know the volume the OP is running. If “a lot” I’d figure out a way to do it my way. If just “a few”, then a mill would be best. I’ve been running the same job for about 15 months now and everything looks like a bar-fed live-tool part now.

Also, keep in mind, you can cut down handling too. Again, volume and all...

I talked with my work about going with a live tool for a couple years "no no"
Now we have one and even though the parts are super simple, now they are one op vs 3, and with the bar feeder, just have someone check/unload parts every so often so you are freeing up man hours and possibly machine time...

 

[david n]

I have a S700 dual contact I cut a similar part on…30HRC 4140 with a 1/2” em but it’s only 1-1/4” flute length / DOC. It totally works but I can’t say for that extra 1/4” you are looking for. Good luck!

4 fluter?.................if'n you're gettin' it done with a 4 x1.25" DOC.............a 5 or six flute will more than likely work in my application.......................