Spindle Orient, CS42

[Machinerguy]

Hi guys, I have a 1989 Hardinge CS42 with live tooling. I've owned it for a little over a year now, and have only put on about 60 hours or so.
The only issue I have with this machine is whenever I'm running a job with live tooling, and I need to orient the spindle, the machine will not orient and lock all on its own.
I have always been able to get around this, by being near the machine when it goes to orient, and just gently turning the back of the spindle to get the brake/pin to "lock" and then all is well. The tool begins to run.
If I don't assist the spindle by hand, it will slowly rock, or sometimes just sit still while the rpm read varies from 0 - 1 rpm. Like it's trying to lock, but just can't.
It does not make a difference whether I was turning CW, CCW, or the spindle wasn't even turning before calling "B0". I've tried multiple "B" commands as far as trying to change the degree that it locks at, along with "Free" on or off, with no results helping.
When it tries to orient, it always needs my hand to assist in locking and continuing the cycle, just gently nudging the spindle in either direction works.
When I first got this machine, I noticed it, but was hoping after a few hundred or so cycles, it would just "free up" from sitting or something, but it looks like I'm going to have to dig into the back of the machine. I just do not know where to really begin.
I have a maintance book, along with a programmers book, but I can't seem to find anything in the maintaince book that gives me a good direction to start in. I'm hoping someone on here, is familiar with these machines and is willing to share some knowledge.
I've been around hardinge machines for 10+ years, but the mechanical behind the panels, im still fairly green.

 

[Machinerguy]

Bump

 

[dandrummerman21]

What's the control on it?

No experience with your machine nor lathes, but if the orientation is anything like that of a ~1988 Fanuc 0mb mill we used to have, there's likely a spindle orientation board on the spindle drive. And IIRC on that machine, there were pots to adjust the orientation (needed on the mill for the ATC).

I am sure there is more than one possible method of orientation that hardinge could have chosen, so it might be there's a magnetic sensor to instead adjust the location of. But I leave that up to you to figure out what type of orientation you have.

Edit: i have a file with some notes on orientation. This is assuming you have a fanuc control and one of these boards. No idea what drive(s)/versions these notes apply to. may or may not be relevent to you.

 

[Machinerguy]

What's the control on it?

No experience with your machine nor lathes, but if the orientation is anything like that of a ~1988 Fanuc 0mb mill we used to have, there's likely a spindle orientation board on the spindle drive. And IIRC on that machine, there were pots to adjust the orientation (needed on the mill for the ATC).

I am sure there is more than one possible method of orientation that hardinge could have chosen, so it might be there's a magnetic sensor to instead adjust the location of. But I leave that up to you to figure out what type of orientation you have.

I have Ge Fanuc OT controls
Another side note to add, when the spindle does successfully orient, I can hear a solid "click" noise like a pin engaging into something. That makes me "assume" that theirs a locking pin of some sort that may be gummy in some way?
I appreciate the response! When your mill orients, do you hear a similar noise like a locking mechanism?

 

[dandrummerman21]

The mill I am talking about did not have a lock. It just used spindle feedback for orientation and spindle power to hold it in place.

On the machine in question, the board failed, we replaced it, and I had to tweak it to get the home position right. The failed board would hunt for location but never get there.

Your machine might be waiting for confirmation from the spindle drive that it's in the right place before it tries to lock it with a solid pin, but it's lightly "hunting", or at least waiting for your gentle touch, and then it sees a good signal to lock in place.



Please note I edited my comment above to add a file with notes. Give it another look.

 

[Machinerguy]

The mill I am talking about did not have a lock. It just used spindle feedback for orientation and spindle power to hold it in place.

On the machine in question, the board failed, we replaced it, and I had to tweak it to get the home position right. The failed board would hunt for location but never get there.

Your machine might be waiting for confirmation from the spindle drive that it's in the right place before it tries to lock it with a solid pin, but it's lightly "hunting", or at least waiting for your gentle touch, and then it sees a good signal to lock in place.



Please note I edited my comment above to add a file with notes. Give it another look.

I'll be honest, I haven't looked into this problem any further yet. Just curious, what makes you lean towards a board/electrical, over a mechanical issue? For some reason I'm leaning towards a mechanical issue over electrical, gkinf solwly on a "gut" feeling, but I also have minimal troubleshooting experience with equipment like this.

 

[memphisjed]

Is there a minimum rpm in your settings? Motors have a minimum, if your control is telling motor to go 1 rpm the motor will try- but will not. The spindle locking when in position is a good sign. It means everything is working and talking correctly.
On our machines it is a "deadpan" setting.

 

[dandrummerman21]

I'll be honest, I haven't looked into this problem any further yet. Just curious, what makes you lean towards a board/electrical, over a mechanical issue? For some reason I'm leaning towards a mechanical issue over electrical, gkinf solwly on a "gut" feeling, but I also have minimal troubleshooting experience with equipment like this.

Because if you told me that you heard a locking pin shoot, but it wasn't actually locking, then that means the machine thought that the spindle was in a certain part of rotation but the pin missed the slot or hole it was supposed to shoot into.

You're saying the machine is just sitting there, like it's waiting for something. If the machine was trying to move the spindle a tiny amount but the servos not putting out any/enough power to get there, they can fight each other until one wins.

you touching it gives it enough oomph for the machine to say, hey, i made it, lock the pin! And so it does.


At least, based on what you've wrote, that's my educated opinion. Might not be right.

If there was some proximity switch that it was supposed to get to, maybe it is out of adjustment (mechanically)

You could take a stab at making a tiny adjustment on the board, noting where the pots were originally set to, and if it doesn't work, put them back.

Or, pull off enough stuff so you can at least inspect the mechanical parts to see wtf is happening.

 

[wmpy]

I agree with dandrummerman21 that it's not a mechanical issue. I have a little newer version of that machine, a Hardinge Conquest T42 with spindle indexing. There is a large sprocket on the spindle and a pawl with teeth that gets pushed into the sprocket to lock it. It did start sticking on me once when I hadn't used it in a while and it got dirty. That doesn't sound like your issue, though. If you can rotate the spindle to help it find the correct position, then I would think there is a setting that needs to be changed. It might be a parameter or a pot on the drive that needs adjusting.

 

[Ox]

The T51 that I bought recently - should have had C, but it came in with Indexing. (grumble)

Mine throws an error when I try to git it to index to B0 or any other location divisible by 5 or whatnot.
I have not taken time to deal with it as I found a quick werk-around, and that is to send it to B1.
The shot pin only is employed on the 5* (?) intervals, and the rest of the locations - it just relies on the brake.

This doesn't solve your issue, but may git some parts out the door...


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Machinerguy]

I'm running this machine off of a 20hp American Rotary phase converter also. I had professionally installed by a good company.

I feel like that may contribute to your theory of servo motors fighting back and forth until ones happy.
How and where would i begin looking into what needs tweaking, electrically. As far as parameters, I have the original documents for the parameters, I can start comparing as a place to start if thats a potential culprit.

This machine reads by "B0" with no decimal points. If my memory of what I read in the book is correct, I believe it said it indexes by 1 degree increments. I could be wrong if it's important, I can dig the book out for that info for you guys.

I appreciate the response and support from you guys!

 

[Ox]

No decimal needed.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox