Spring road trip to Canada and Customs from Hell

[Rancher Bill]

Lots of people get held up at US Customs

U.S. Customs delays ambulance at border
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=057c81db-f6ea-459c-83af-689ed27771ff&k=90110


Fire truck held up at border
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=91bb9ff9-b07c-425f-8cf1-5b0fbf983a0b&k=30352



You aren't the only one.

 

[Racebrewer]

Yup,

911 changed everything, especially the border. There was massive hiring with little care or concern because Customs had been heavily and ludicrously understaffed for years. The process was not very discerning. This ocurred just as many of the experienced officers, hired in the 70's, decided to bail out when the organization was dragged screaming and kicking into Department of Homeland Insecurity.

God help any officer who uses commonsense in the current scheme.

Last year Customs had the second to lowest morale of any Gov't organization. Only the Small Business Admin' had lower morale. Now that must be a real Hell-Hole.

John

 

[proFeign]

PMFBI but couldn't you just declare that both machines had a sale value of $1,999.99 each? I mean, obviously pick some other number like $1,855.62 or something but wtf do border guards know about tools? Aside from apparently being tools themselves...

If they challenge its worth or sale price you can always say "oh it's got a damaged stator coil set and needs a new 408V contactor" and they wouldn't know if you had just made up those words or not. Machinery that needs repair will confound all but PM types if accompanied by a good story.

"The chucking reamer capacity of this machine is only 9/16, plus the cross slide acme screws are all buggered. This guy should be paying me to take this machine off his hands!" :beer:

 

[Lew Hartswick]

Last year Customs had the second to lowest morale of any Gov't organization. Only the Small Business Admin' had lower morale. Now that must be a real Hell-Hole.

John

Good grief! You mean it worse than the Post Office? :-) How many have gone (not "postal")
what would you call it? :-)
...lew...

 

[t.lewis]

Early 80's my future wife and my two brothers booked a fishing trip in ontario. It was our first time into canada. Two vehicles and two boats, I hand a pickup and the bigger boat so i haled the gas. two 55 gal. drums and Two 30 gal. drums plus three tanks of gas. Hit the border and seen two cars pulled over and everything spread out on the pavement. Figured we were next. gaurd aproached us and asked were we where going and we said fishing and the guy behind me was with me and he waved us both thought. 10 boyscouts and two scout masters just stared at us as we passed by and all thier clothes, car, car seats, dufle bags, stripped and laying on the parking lot. Found out after we retured that we where only alowed 20 gal gas each. Crossing the border is a learning lesson that you only want to learn once.

 

[wippin' boy]

i've had excellent luck with my victors
nothing like that little guy (12" to 16" chucked cnc's)
basically mori-seiki copies
they can really take a hit (what a shame it is to say that)
hope you can understand the dude in new jersey better than i can

 

[surplusjohn]

We have a cottage in Ontario , near Athens, so we travel back and forth often over the Thousand Islands Bridges, [ Try to catch it at sunset, spectacular] and you never can predict what the border is going to be like. Sometimes we come upon no lines and a polite wave thru, other times it is a 3 hour wait and the third degree, this is for either way. It is almost like the border guards have a officer who tells them to act nice or act like aholes on any particular day. Also, it seems like the Canadians mix up the english and french speakers.
BTW, if you are going into Canada, leave your radar detector and pepper spray home, big no nos on both. I keep my Wife supplied with key chain pepper spray cannisters [as well as my daughter and son in NYC] and it sees like everytime we go she realizes she has it on her and we have to dump it in a trash can before we get to the border.
Also, it is a good idea to have your passports if you have them, Both ways have made it clear for years that they prefer them. They obviously know who we are and are comparing our answers to what the computer says and we have never had an issue but I avoid moving anything we don't have to. I once brought up a used couch and expected a problem but when the female border guard asked me what it was worth, I told her that if I was selling it at a garage sale and she paid me 5 bucks for it I would be releived, she smiled and waved me through.

 

[77ironhead]

and you never can predict what the border is going to be like. Sometimes we come upon no lines and a polite wave thru, other times it is a 3 hour wait and the third degree, this is for either way. It is almost like the border guards have a officer who tells them to act nice or act like aholes on any particular day. Also, it seems like the Canadians mix up the english and french speakers.

oh, the truth of that statement....having grown up in western NY, and having lived in Buffalo 1/4 mile from the bridge, I've been across the border countless times, and it was always a crapshoot going over and coming home as to whether you'd get hassles or not, going either way....including one occasion where the US border guys just couldn't grasp the concept that someone would drive 40 WHOLE MILES, just to see the ice coming over the falls for the afternoon when they lift the boom on lake Erie in the spring (6 hours at the crossing coming home while they dis-assembled my friends car looking for contraband....never wear a greatful dead t-shirt and try to cross into the States)....and including another memorable occasion going into Canada for a camping trip, they ask what's in my van, I tell the Canadian border guys camping gear and my Harley...off to customs AND IMMIGRATION, a night in jail, an official hearing to deport me from Canada, and when I get back to the border to my van, find that the Canadian border guys had gone on a souvenier-hunting trip in my stuff, confiscating such illegal, dangerous contraband like my cowboy hat, my riding glasses (oakley's), my leather vest, some smaller knick-knacks....at least my Harley was still there, a very real concern, as the murderers, drug dealers, and thieves they housed me with in the Canadian prison all figured the border guys were going to confiscate it too....and the US border guys (at least on that occasion) must have been informed by their Canadian counterparts I was coming, because they were exceptionally nice to me (must have felt a little pity on me, it was the 4th of July), and let me just go through....
all my fun at the border through the years was pre-9/11, too.....I doubt I'll ever try visiting north again........

 

[Milacron]

PS
How much do the 2 machines weigh?

I said 3,500 lbs earlier, but just yesterday I noticed in literature the Aciera is slightly heavier than I realized, so total weight of machines was more like 3,800 lb. Add in the Aciera horizontal overarm/support, tooling, heavy pallets.. and the grand total being hauled (not counting me) up in the 4,200 lb range.

Going down the interstate I hardly noticed anything was back there. Fuel mileage was decreased by 2.5 mpg, such that I got 17.2 mpg with the load (and increased wind resistance of machines taller than cab) at average speed of 70 mph.

 

[Milacron]

PMFBI but couldn't you just declare that both machines had a sale value of $1,999.99 each? I mean, obviously pick some other number like $1,855.62 or something but wtf do border guards know about tools? Aside from apparently being tools themselves...

If they challenge its worth or sale price you can always say "oh it's got a damaged stator coil set and needs a new 408V contactor" and they wouldn't know if you had just made up those words or not. Machinery that needs repair will confound all but PM types if accompanied by a good story.

Had to be less than $2,000 total invoice, so $1,000 each would be quite a stretch especially considering the Victor is current model, appears absolutely like brand new and cost over $20,000 just a few years ago.

At some point in the initial "heated discussion" with the agent about this I blurted out that maybe I should have directed the seller to make up a lower figure since I'm getting "punished" for being honest. This set the agent into a tirade about the heavy fines for false invoices. He never stated an amount, but I presume if they can fine $10,000 for not having an ACE manifest, the fine for false invoice would be somewhere in the billion dollar range

 

[Racebrewer]

Lew,

"Good grief! You mean it worse than the Post Office? :-) How many have gone (not "postal") what would you call it? :-)
...lew...

There probably isn't a word yet. How about "Customary"?<LOL>

Recommendations on buying in Canada:

1. Realize that Customs meets people day in and day out who will lie and cheat to save $20.00. They get annoyed by it.
2. Know which port of entry back into the US you will use in advance.
3. Get their phone number and ask for the Supervisory Customs Inspector. Get their name! Tell them your name and that you live in (wherever). Ask for their help. Explain EXACTLY what you want to do and why, without waxing on the wonderfulness of Old Iron. Tell them if its for personal use or business. Don't fib! If you tell them that you are a hobbiest and it says "Milacron's Machine Shop" on the door of your truck, don't be surprised as to what happens.
3. Know when you are returning to the States and ask that Supervisory Customs Inspector if he/she is on that shift. If not ask he/she to leave a note that you talked with he/she.
4. Do not cross through on a Holiday, Saturday and/or Sunday. Cross early in the day. That way you get the more experienced officers. Usually older (experienced) the better.
5. Be pleasant. Don't try lame jokes, please. They've been heard. Too many times....
6. Don't bring back anything else. Clean out your truck. Don't carry any drugs or firearms for God's Sake.
7. Don't over react to anything. Don't get angry or indignant, just ask for help and explanations.
8. Bring every bit of documentation you can, such as the original ad you answered, copies of your correspondence, bank withdrawl if you paid cash, etc.
9. If you have a commercial business you may need a Formal Entry which requires a lot more paperwork and you are best setting up with a Customs Brokerage firm at least a week ahead of time.
10. If it is believed that you are undervaluing your stuff or fibbing about business realities, Customs can require a Formal Entry at a minimum. Note 9. above.
11. Smile, but not too often, too much, or inappropriately. If the Supervisory Customs Inspector that you talked to is on duty, find him and say "Thanks".

John

P.S. Customs has a great website albeit huge. Look under "Trade" and the "Publications" for info. Sould be "Importing Into The US". Also look for "Know Before You Go" under "Travel" WWW.CBP.gov

 

[jim rozen]

Sir your advice on how to navigate the world-O-customs had the ring of truth
about it so the comment I make below is specifically not intended for you. But:

"Smile, but not too often, too much, or inappropriately."

Frankly I'm more than a little bit worked up that ordinary citizens have to
calibrate their response to our government to this degree. So much, but not
too much. Just this much. Or else you get the proctological inspection and
then waterboarding.

The post office. Traiffic cops. Inspectors at customs. Teachers. State troopers.

Seems like their only job in life is to jam it to citizens and jam it hard. Any
indication that you are resistant to the strong-arm tactic and it is the tazer or
handcuffs for you. Don't talk back. Be compliant. Don't resist. You will
be hurt. The reasoning behind all this: "oh it's different after 9/11."

A close friend at work had an unfortunate encounter with the airline security
folks recently and the net result is I have further decided to avoid flying via
commercial airlines for any reason in the future.

Folks the terrorists have won. We've managed to turn our entire government into
a police state, and the storm troopers in government are gleefully enjoying the whole
thing. This is a disaster of our own doing.

Jim

 

[Milacron]

"Smile, but not too often, too much, or inappropriately."

Frankly I'm more than a little bit worked up that ordinary citizens have to
calibrate their response to our government to this degree. So much, but not
too much. Just this much. Or else you get the proctological inspection and
then waterboarding.

I agree, what BS to have to act "just right" in these situations. At one point in the "heated discussion" one of the Gestapo accused me of lying and then pointed out that he was trained to tell such things. I came within a hair of telling him that he must have slept thru the "facial expressions and mannerisms" course that day, cause he was wrong. But I figured that would set off another tirade and I just looked him straight in the eyes and calmly said "No I'm not".

Gee, if only we could all be as "savy" as Racebrewer

 

[jpfclass]

Before 9/11 it was bad enough. The one thing they want to see is for you to lose it. They're ready for it on the USA side. I've seen it happen, guns come out, driver handcuffed and thrown in their on site cell. I've also had many years to talk to all the agents at various border crossings. It really does make a dull day exciting when things happen like that. You cannot impress them with your sovereign rights. They lock you up and let the courts decide your innocence and they go home and sleep that night. Doesn't affect them at all and they will tell the court their side of it whether it slants the truth or not. Take a number Jack.

I've had at least 2 of them really try and bully me over the years. Their comes a time when you have to weigh out the outcome. Shut up and take it or lash out and get arrested. It wasn't easy, but I also found these 2 got there reward later on because if they've done it to you, chances are they've done it many times and complaints get filed once too many and their job is done.

They are also well trained in the usual BS that people say and know every angle, believe me I've heard their side of it. The one thing I have learned is to play the game and everyone is happy. For instance, I bought a $3,000.00 lathe last summer. Now I know I can't hide that in the back of the truck, but I made up an official receipt of $1,000.00 value. Come up to the booth, answer the routine questions and nothing else, go inside and pay the government their taxes. No attitude involved, just giving them what they expect and everyone gets something without a hassle and I'm heading home after a good days drive with my machine.

The Queen or Uncle Sam wants something, you have to give them something for them to look the other way.
BTW, they now keep a record of how many times you cross and where, who you are and your past criminal and medical history and what you have declared recently. If you have a DUI/DWI forget about crossing either border, you'll be refused entry.

Any firearms infractions or felonies is big no-no either way also. If an American shows up without proper paperwork for a firearm on the Cdn side, it's usually a fine and gun taken away. If a Canadian does the same on the US side, you're going to jail, fine and possible imprisonment and denied entry to USA forever probably. Oh yes, big brother is watching you since 9/11 and remember that the terrorists came in on the Cdn side.

 

[anchorman]

oh, the truth of that statement....having grown up in western NY, and having lived in Buffalo 1/4 mile from the bridge, I've been across the border countless times, and it was always a crapshoot going over and coming home as to whether you'd get hassles or not, going either way....including one occasion where the US border guys just couldn't grasp the concept that someone would drive 40 WHOLE MILES, just to see the ice coming over the falls for the afternoon when they lift the boom on lake Erie in the spring (6 hours at the crossing coming home while they dis-assembled my friends car looking for contraband....never wear a greatful dead t-shirt and try to cross into the States)....and including another memorable occasion going into Canada for a camping trip, they ask what's in my van, I tell the Canadian border guys camping gear and my Harley...off to customs AND IMMIGRATION, a night in jail, an official hearing to deport me from Canada, and when I get back to the border to my van, find that the Canadian border guys had gone on a souvenier-hunting trip in my stuff, confiscating such illegal, dangerous contraband like my cowboy hat, my riding glasses (oakley's), my leather vest, some smaller knick-knacks....at least my Harley was still there, a very real concern, as the murderers, drug dealers, and thieves they housed me with in the Canadian prison all figured the border guys were going to confiscate it too....and the US border guys (at least on that occasion) must have been informed by their Canadian counterparts I was coming, because they were exceptionally nice to me (must have felt a little pity on me, it was the 4th of July), and let me just go through....
all my fun at the border through the years was pre-9/11, too.....I doubt I'll ever try visiting north again........

Ironhead, why were they so upset over the harley in the van? is it illegal to take a motorcycle with you for your own enjoyment in canada? or did they think you were trying to import it illegally?


Last time I went to canada was about the summer of 2002. The canadians were nothing but friendly, but my return trip (about 8 hours later), I got the third degree for not sounding american enough, and only having my driver's license for ID, which at the time was plenty legal. It took a lot of convincing and talking to get the guy to believe that I was the guy in the picture on the license, and that I really was a good upstanding yankee citizen born and raised in philadelphia, pa. what a major pita.

on the other hand, I came back from germany once back in 1997 with tons of stuff in my bags, including 10 liters of beer, and they just waved me on in... so strange. I was tired, they were tired, I told them I couldn't really say how much the stuff was worth since I had been there at school for a year, and it was all personal items. I told them about all the books, tools, clothes, etc. was all used and, not for sale, etc. and of course told them about the beer, and they told me welcome home, now get on out of here and get some sleep! I guess I them going through all my stuff was just going to be too much hassle at the end of the shift.

It really is total capriciousness on the part of the guys waving you in...

 

[77ironhead]

Ironhead, why were they so upset over the harley in the van? is it illegal to take a motorcycle with you for your own enjoyment in canada? or did they think you were trying to import it illegally?


It really is total capriciousness on the part of the guys waving you in...

the Harley in my van was only the trigger....the Canadians take their outlaw bikers problems a little more seriously than we do (not that I am any kind of outlaw, or even a biker, for that matter, I'm just a motorcycle enthusiast who likes Harley's)....they wanted to do a more thorough checkout on me because of it. As jpfclass indicated, ANY arrest record is a big no-no while trying to cross the border (altho he is mistaken on one point- the US and Canadian border guys had a direct computer link BEFORE 9/11) and I have a DUI on my record. Anyhow, during the customs & immigration inspection, I found out that (in the words of the Canadian immigration officer) Canadian law enforcement "views DUI the same as carrying a gun", and being as I got a DUI charge years ago, I was ineligible to enter Canada (unknown to me, as stated earlier, I've been across the border COUNTLESS times, and it had never been an issue before, including a couple of occasions when I was asked, and TOLD them I had a DUI conviction)


on edit: there USED to be a sign on the bridge crossing into Fort Erie, Ontario that stated something to the effect of: "you are no longer under the jurisdiction of US laws" or some such......a point driven home to me while being detained and searched while waiting to be transported to jail....I have a card in my wallet (one of those freebie deals given out by 'biker lawyer' ambulance chasers at a bike event) which I carry because on one side is a mini diagram of an intersection, like seen on accident report forms used by the police, so if I'm in an accident, I can (if I'm still conscious and able, hopefully) detail the accident while fresh in my mind. Unfortunately for me in that particular situation, on the flip side of the card is a list of rights enjoyed by us here in the US, including our right to free speech, our right to association (as confirmed by the Supreme Court, with precedents listed), our Miranda rights, etc....the same immigration officer who informed me of their views on DUI, was very...uh...forceful...in informing me that none of those 'rights' applied in Canada (emphasis quotes added to indicate her tone, just before calling out her shaved-headed, combat fatigue wearing counterpart, whose sole purpose, as far a I could determine, was intimidation, for my 5'9, 150 lb scrawny little a*s)

 

[Rancher Bill]

.....on the flip side of the card is a list of rights enjoyed by us here in the US, including our right to free speech, our right to association (as confirmed by the Supreme Court, with precedents listed), our Miranda rights, etc....

....was very...uh...forceful...in informing me that none of those 'rights' applied in Canada

Did you expect US law to apply to Canada?

We have the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/#libertes

We like it.

 

[Racebrewer]

Bordermania

Hi,

I agree totally with what others have said about the loss of rights since 9/11. It should never have been allowed and hopefully it is turning the other way. It was a knee jerk response, in fear. The fear has passed.

My suggestions were to hopefully make it easier to cross the border, not to intimate that this was a "good thing".<LOL>.

As to personal rights, Customs Officers are subject to full background investigations that extend into every aspect of their lives, those of their relatives and even their friends. They are subject to surprise random drug tests. Full financial disclosures are required every few years. The slighest innuendo opens them up to a full-blown Internal Affairs investigations.

Perhaps one's thinking gets jaded after a few years of this?

I had a friend in High School. He was two years older than me and was kind of a mentor. Smart guy. Very thoughtful and gave me great advice. I didn't see him for about ten years after graduation, but I knew that he had taken a job as a state prison guard. Then one day I saw him on local TV beating the crap out of a prisoner with a Billy club. The video was taken by a hidden camera.

Hey, the job makes the man (person)!

John

 

[Tak of the North]

Some of my research about taking firearms across the border confirms what has been said about crossing in general – allot has to do with the mood of the agent when you pull up to the window.

While researching how to get my considerable arsenal up to Alaska from the lower 48, I made numerous phone calls to different customs and border services agencies, both CDN and USA. Some of the things I discovered:

1. Long guns (Rifles and Shotguns) can be brought into Canada from the US if you file for a Permit ahead of time and have a specific reason for doing so.
2. Bringing a handgun of any kind into Canada is “theoretically” possible but requires even more permits and special approval from the Chief Firearms Officer of the Specific province(s) you will be traveling through. However, an ordinary citizen will likely be denied such a privilege, except (possibly) for the case of a US citizen in the process of relocating from the lower 48 to Alaska if you can give them an exact itinerary of your route through Canada.
3. Even in the case of #2 above, it was made very clear to me by Canadian officials that if you show up with all of the pre-approved permits and forms – even signed by the Queen herself - IT IS STILL UP TO THE DISCRETION OF THE OFFICER ON DUTY THAT DAY AS TO WHETHER TO LET YOU PASS OR NOT.

That last point is pretty much what convinced me it wasn’t worth doing – no matter how well you prepare you are still up to the mercy of how badly a particular officer is feeling on any given day.

BTW, for any interested, it turns out it really is pretty easy to get your guns up to Alaska:

1. Your own long guns (Rifles and Shotguns) can be legally shipped via USPS parcel post. Only stipulation is they must be unloaded (duh!) and must be addressed from yourself, to yourself. Addressing to someone else (a friend for example) would constitute a “transfer” under BATF rules.
2. Handguns cannot be shipped via USPS, but can be shipped by “common carrier” which means UPS, FedEx, etc. However, currently only FedEx will accept the package from a private citizen, UPS requires the shipper to be a licensed dealer. In both cases, the RECIPIENT must be a licensed dealer (who will then transfer them back to you at the destination, usually for a $20 or so fee). Also, the contents must be declared to the service agent at the counter, but must not be marked in any way on the outside of the package that firearms are inside.
3. You can legally transit through Canada with up to 5000 rounds of ammunition for personal use without paying a duty. Even hollow points are allowed now, but things like tracers, armor piercing, etc are still forbidden. I showed up to the crossing with 4995 rounds in my trailer. Ordinarily, this would probably have resulted in increased scrutiny (if this guy has this much ammo, where are his guns?) but I was able to show all of my shipping receipts from #1&2 above proving I sent everything ahead.
4. I still have more ammo to ship, but at this time you are legally allowed to carry up to 50lbs of ammo in checked luggage on an airline (at least on Alaska, I don’t know about the others). I usually take a case back up with me whenever I’m down visiting relatives. Otherwise, it’s too expensive and complicated to make it cost effective shipping ammo via UPS – might as well buy it new up here.

 

[jim rozen]

As mentioned, my comments were specifically not addressed to
racebrewer. It was pretty obvious that he was trying to
clarify the steps that worked well for him.

My fear is that the current environment has not diminished
a bit, quite the opposite. The thugs and goons in
govermnent are taking this opportunity to intimidate,
molest, and annoy regular citizens. Yes even torture them
on occasion. They bang the "terrorism" drum and expect
instant and complete obedience. IMO the terrorists we
have to worry about are those folks in our own government.

Jim