Starting a small CNC shop

[Big_Dog]

Been a lurker here for a long time, but looking for some advise now. Long story short, I've been running another business since college and things have gone south. I've been a hobbyist machining my own parts for many years and enjoy doing it, but have no formal training in the field or provable work experience anywhere else. However I make pretty good parts IMO and have amassed a fairly large sum worth of equipment.

Significant experience with Fusion360 CAD and CAM and a commercial license good for another 2 years. Designing my own parts, lots of 3D surfacing, and high efficiency milling work. Can program 5-axis that looks good in simulation.
A CNC converted Bridgeport clone, servo driven, fairly well tooled up and holds .001 easily, a few tenths if I spend time walking a part in.
A ProtoMAX waterjet, 12"x12"x1" cutting envelope
Sheldon R15 lathe, partly CNC converted, not currently running but could get it going with some cash flow. The ways are pretty worn though.
Plasma cutter, MIG and TIG welders, 7x12 band saw, all kinds of other assorted power and hand tools.
Designed but not yet built 5-axis trunnion, already bought the expensive bits (zero-backlash harmonic drives and servos).

Also a CNC converted mini mill that I'm planning to sell. Designed my own conversion kit for the BP and used it to make the parts.

My issue is, of course, where to find work. I"m friends with the guys at a small shop I've taken projects to before, they've given me a few jobs and are having me program a 3d surfacing path for some kind of die, but it doesn't seem like it's going to be enough to pay the bills. So I'm looking to find some of my own customers. I'm building a website and trying to get an instagram account to show off parts. Of course I 'violated' their terms and had the account locked before I finished registering, apparently a somewhat common issue.

Just trying to get started and get by for now with what I have. If things work out, I should have funds to pick up some high dollar machines in a year or so once things are resolved, but need to make enough to live for now.

 

[Antarctica]

blah blah blah...but need to make enough to live for now.

Go get a job. Get coin rolling in, and then go to rule number one of starting a shop that this forum has preached over and over. Don't quit you day job until your can't afford not to.

Honestly, you've described having a bunch of projects. Go get experience in a real shop programming real jobs on real machines, and keep working a plan to go on you own.

Not trying to be a dick. Just don't want to see you spin wheels an lose what you do have in the meantime.

 

[michiganbuck]

Georgia may not be the best place to find used machines if looking for used..Ohio and Michigan are often better.

Sounds like you have a shoe-in at one customer and enough machines to do a few jobs.

50% of your time knocking on doors takes a big chunk out of your shop rate.

 

[Big_Dog]

Situation here's a little different than most. I have enough assets tied up in the other venture to retire and buy a couple new 5-axis VMCs, however not much liquid - that all went to the lawyers. I'm really looking to do something I enjoy while not working under someone for entry level pay after being my own boss for 10 years. Really just trying to find enough work to scrape by until I can liquidate those assets. Certainly would be great if it took off longer term though.

 

[Kalispel]

Situation here's a little different than most. I have enough assets tied up in the other venture to retire and buy a couple new 5-axis VMCs, however not much liquid - that all went to the lawyers. I'm really looking to do something I enjoy while not working under someone for entry level pay after being my own boss for 10 years. Really just trying to find enough work to scrape by until I can liquidate those assets. Certainly would be great if it took off longer term though.

It sounds like you should liquidate the assets and bank the money.

Do not buy new machines without a plan to put them to work immediately.

“Nothing happens until someone sells something” is attributed to lots of famous businessmen - Henry Ford, Thomas Watson, and Peter Drucker among others. It has appeal because it is absolutely true.

Figure out how you can make some money with the tools you have. Then do it. Then do more of it. Then buy the right machines if it makes economic sense.

You can take the product route or the job shop route. The necessary skill sets and business models are different and it is difficult to combine the two.

 

[Mebfab]

Do some research on the forum. This comes up every other week. Do you think you are the first person with that question?

 

[thewynner98]

Been a lurker here for a long time, but looking for some advise now. Long story short, I've been running another business since college and things have gone south. I've been a hobbyist machining my own parts for many years and enjoy doing it, but have no formal training in the field or provable work experience anywhere else. However I make pretty good parts IMO and have amassed a fairly large sum worth of equipment.

Significant experience with Fusion360 CAD and CAM and a commercial license good for another 2 years. Designing my own parts, lots of 3D surfacing, and high efficiency milling work. Can program 5-axis that looks good in simulation.
A CNC converted Bridgeport clone, servo driven, fairly well tooled up and holds .001 easily, a few tenths if I spend time walking a part in.
A ProtoMAX waterjet, 12"x12"x1" cutting envelope
Sheldon R15 lathe, partly CNC converted, not currently running but could get it going with some cash flow. The ways are pretty worn though.
Plasma cutter, MIG and TIG welders, 7x12 band saw, all kinds of other assorted power and hand tools.
Designed but not yet built 5-axis trunnion, already bought the expensive bits (zero-backlash harmonic drives and servos).

Also a CNC converted mini mill that I'm planning to sell. Designed my own conversion kit for the BP and used it to make the parts.

My issue is, of course, where to find work. I"m friends with the guys at a small shop I've taken projects to before, they've given me a few jobs and are having me program a 3d surfacing path for some kind of die, but it doesn't seem like it's going to be enough to pay the bills. So I'm looking to find some of my own customers. I'm building a website and trying to get an instagram account to show off parts. Of course I 'violated' their terms and had the account locked before I finished registering, apparently a somewhat common issue.

Just trying to get started and get by for now with what I have. If things work out, I should have funds to pick up some high dollar machines in a year or so once things are resolved, but need to make enough to live for now.

Get off this forum before you get depressed. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one here and most stink. Unless you have run a shop for 40 years you dont know enough, least not on this forum you'll never make it and will only die trying. Good luck if you have run another business well for 10 then you've done better than 98% of the clowns on here. Wish you fools would figure out some of us are actually smart enough too teach ourselves how to do something.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

 

[Comatose]

My advice? Don't!

But not the usual doom and gloom "don't" that a lot of people here will post, about how there's no money and race to the bottom, etc.

My don't is more like this. You sound smart. You sound scrappy. You have maybe half a million to play with. You don't have a ton of professional machining experience. You seem to have a knack for bodging stuff together and making them work.

Why take all that and go into a commodity business like being a CNC job shop?

Know what everyone here needs? A better anodizing shop. A heat treat shop that gives a shit. A plating shop that ships back 10 parts when you send them 10 parts. Hell, even a sawing shop that just preps blanks might do great, depending on your area. If there are already a bunch of machine shops around, find out what they need. If there aren't, find out why not. It's unlikely to be "nobody around here thought of it."

I promise that your creativity and scrappiness will be rewarded more there than trying to run one $400,000 5 axis mill while also selling the services of same.


Alternatively, get into automation, where the ability to design and make parts in house would be a huge asset. Buy a used Fanuc LR Mate and get to learning, maybe. We've lost millions of people from the workforce in the past couple years. A guy who can take a collaborative robot, stick a gripper on it and program it up isn't going to starve any time soon, and you get to make the gripper fingers, mount, workholding nests, etc.


Also, it might not matter, exactly, but the price of raw materials is absolutely INSANE right now. This isn't the time to be scrapping five parts to ship one in the learning process.

just me 3.2 cents (inflation, ya know)

 

[The Dude]

Here's an irony: I'm going to tell you that the best thing is to not listen to other people (for this kind of an issue), you need to do it "on your own". Yes, might fail but you also can't be afraid of failure. So, just ironically, listen to me to tell you not listen to other people (again, about this issue, not necessarily other things). No one here can give you the perfect answer on this. Here's an analogy: asking about certain wedding issues is fine (church, outside, menus, etc.), but asking if you should get married or not is something entirely on you. Not your parents!

Good luck!
The Dude

 

[CITIZEN F16]

Wish you fools would figure out some of us are actually smart enough too teach ourselves how to do something.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

You just have to ignore the people that are full of themselves and just listen to those grounded in reality. Too many people seem to forget where they started and that goes for a lot of people in many businesses. I am pretty sure most of us self employed violated building codes and labor laws when we started, I know I did. I think I can confess since the statue of limitations have run out. I paid part timers under the table, including a friend's 16 year old nephew, too young to work in a shop. Used chemicals disallowed for manufacturing in the state I was in, added on to my garage without permitting the work, and probably a few more.

 

[Garwood]

You just have to ignore the people that are full of themselves and just listen to those grounded in reality. Too many people seem to forget where they started and that goes for a lot of people in many businesses. I am pretty sure most of us self employed violated building codes and labor laws when we started, I know I did. I think I can confess since the statue of limitations have run out. I paid part timers under the table, including a friend's 16 year old nephew, too young to work in a shop. Used chemicals disallowed for manufacturing in the state I was in, added on to my garage without permitting the work, and probably a few more.

That's illegal?

 

[thewynner98]

You just have to ignore the people that are full of themselves and just listen to those grounded in reality. Too many people seem to forget where they started and that goes for a lot of people in many businesses. I am pretty sure most of us self employed violated building codes and labor laws when we started, I know I did. I think I can confess since the statue of limitations have run out. I paid part timers under the table, including a friend's 16 year old nephew, too young to work in a shop. Used chemicals disallowed for manufacturing in the state I was in, added on to my garage without permitting the work, and probably a few more.

Wish more folks here were like you.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

 

[jatt]

Yeah I know the whole age thing is touted as just a number, but as someone who almost 50 - be damned if I would want to basically start out again (looking for decent ongoing customers etc...). Doing well to keep my wife as it is with the hours I currently do. That last bit is of course my problem.

I see you already had a business going - want to do it all again? Dont need to tell you it wont just be an 8 hr a day and clock out at the end kind of shift thing!

Sound a bit doom and gloom? probably. But one isnt a robot, and trying to strike the whole balance in life thing - well I dont have to spell that out.

But yeah if you are serious, as already basically said, see what your area is lacking and go from there. Keeping your cost base down at this stage is how I would proceed if it was me.

I wish you the best, whatever you wind up doing.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Yeah I know the whole age thing is touted as just a number, but as someone who almost 50 - be damned if I would want to basically start out again (looking for decent ongoing customers etc...). Doing well to keep my wife as it is with the hours I currently do. That last bit is of course my problem.

I see you already had a business going - want to do it all again? Dont need to tell you it wont just be an 8 hr a day and clock out at the end kind of shift thing!

Sound a bit doom and gloom? probably. But one isnt a robot, and trying to strike the whole balance in life thing - well I dont have to spell that out.

But yeah if you are serious, as already basically said, see what your area is lacking and go from there. Keeping your cost base down at this stage is how I would proceed if it was me.

I wish you the best, whatever you wind up doing.

Here's how I look at it:

I'm 58, and have my own shop. It's the second one I've had.
Next year, I'm going to be 59.
I can either be 59 WITH my new shop. Or 59 without it.
I'd rather be 59 with it.

I'd rather make money by myself in my little shop at 8 pm than sit at home.
I'm glad I did it again, and it's doing well.

"Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently." - Henry Ford

 

[wheelieking71]

Do not buy new machines without a plan to put them to work immediately.

“Nothing happens until someone sells something” is attributed to lots of famous businessmen - Henry Ford, Thomas Watson, and Peter Drucker among others. It has appeal because it is absolutely true.

Figure out how you can make some money with the tools you have. Then do it. Then do more of it. Then buy the right machines if it makes economic sense.

You can take the product route or the job shop route. The necessary skill sets and business models are different and it is difficult to combine the two.

In red ^^^^^^
Best advice I see in this thread so far. BUT!:

That CNC converted Bridgeport? No freaking way I would start a CNC shop with that. Ask Alloutmx how much fun that is!
If you are serious about this, I would suggest popping for at minimum a used Fadal. I've never owned one. And I think I would probably dislike the control.
But, I still feel they are probably the perfect starter machine.
Can be had cheap. Tons of support. Parts are no problem. Enclosure to help maintain the mess (cleaning up doesn't pay). And the big one: TOOL CHANGER!.
I'm not saying ditch the Bridgy all together. But, CNC shops tend to end up with work that comes in batches. Unless you are going to prototype only?
For one-off stuff, I'm sure the Bridgy would be super handy to have. But, making more than of one or two of anything on a CNC converted Bridgeport will get real old, real fast.
Not to mention you said lots of 3-D stuff. I can't even imagine how painful that would be on a CNC converted Bridgeport. And, you will wear it out completely in no time.

Just my $0.02. Take it for what its worth (not much).

 

[mhajicek]

And the big one: TOOL CHANGER!.
I'm not saying ditch the Bridgy all together. But, CNC shops tend to end up with work that comes in batches. Unless you are going to prototype only?

I do prototype work. It's almost always half a dozen or more, so they can test them out. Then the next month they want 300 just the same. I can't imagine trying to be a machinist these days without a toolchanger.

 

[Cole2534]

You just have to ignore the people that are full of themselves and just listen to those grounded in reality. Too many people seem to forget where they started and that goes for a lot of people in many businesses. I am pretty sure most of us self employed violated building codes and labor laws when we started, I know I did. I think I can confess since the statue of limitations have run out. I paid part timers under the table, including a friend's 16 year old nephew, too young to work in a shop. Used chemicals disallowed for manufacturing in the state I was in, added on to my garage without permitting the work, and probably a few more.

Ha. You didn't even start on the elec code. Turns out, 8/4soow is enough to keep a QT15n running with modest part weights.

Programmed via Mazatrol

 

[CITIZEN F16]

Ha. You didn't even start on the elec code. Turns out, 8/4soow is enough to keep a QT15n running with modest part weights.

Programmed via Mazatrol

I didn't want to confess to everything. I can beat that, while I was having a shop built on a newly purchased property I had machines inside the tack rooms in a shed row barn. I had a few sets of wires run though some planters and the garden. The shop was being built on the opposite of the acre lot from the wires and the barn. I still was on edge when the building inspector showed up.

 

[CITIZEN F16]

In red ^^^^^^
Best advice I see in this thread so far. BUT!:

That CNC converted Bridgeport? No freaking way I would start a CNC shop with that. Ask Alloutmx how much fun that is!

With open loop stepper motor machines you never know what you are going to get, some can barely hold +/- .005.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

It sounds like you should liquidate the assets and bank the money.

Do not buy new machines without a plan to put them to work immediately.

I will respectfully disagree here. It's been my experience that you have to have the infrastructure in place FIRST before you go calling on customers. If not, you'll get a job in your lap that you won't be able to do, and you will see just how long it can take to get a decent machine installed and ready to go.

I had my CNCs in place FIRST, then went out looking for work.