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Starting a small shop

 Several pro iso folks in here. Do you disagree that having iso habits are a good thing? Do you disagree with having a qms that says how you do business and handle issues and that you constantly improve yourself? If so...well you sir would be a moron..by definition a stupid person. Hardly name calling.

I'm smart enough to know that my business needs to function without me being there. Smart enough to have a qms system in place that lets me see the whole picture at a moments notice anywhere I have internet. Things that would fall under iso habits regardless of my actual registrar certificate for as9100d "which has its own extra added bonus' for risk management, something a new business should probably use"

Ok, first of all don't disagree ON SOME LEVEL. But this thread is about starting a new shop, ISO or AS is waaayyy down the road, if the OP chooses (or needs) to pursue it.

You are advocating he start BS ISO stuff on day one. HE SHOULD NOT- he should focus on making quality every time, with the customer in mind. IE if the customer supplies a print with a +/-.01" dim, but tells him (or makes a note) "eh, you can scale that/sawcut it, it doesn't matter really, just a tol thrown on by an inexperienced engineer (etc)" he should be able to get to work from that, not have to document every little detail, and have the customer sign off on it.
 
In ISOs defence (or AS9100 or any procedure), it's not the fault of the procedures governing body, if the Quality Manager has implemented a dick-head interpretation of the procedure.
With any procedure, I've always found it best to be "reasonably vague". For example, if you have a job/traveller card that gets signed by inspection, then your procedures need to say "signed in ink".
I have seen one example where it stated "signed in black ink" and there was a minor fail because some were signed in blue.

The other problem is QMs get carried away with their powers, and love to embellish and make procedures bigger and bigger.
I worked at one place (Tier 1 Aerospace supplier) where the original (fully approved) manual which was about 1" thick, was literally thrown away and replaced by one that was 4" thick, implemented by an outside contractor.
I remember the owners Son was over the moon with this, because he genuinely thought that doing this controlled his business better.
No one read it - it was too big - and it didn't document what we did. It was a generically implemented manual where I read it and there were 3 or 4 occurrences where it didn't even have our company name in there - it had the other companies name that the manual was copied from.
After 3 years the decision was made to scrap it, and revert back to the original, which when I left was still ongoing.
Complete clusterfuk.

No, but it is the "culture" of ISO that reeks of this. How many places implement a 'good' ISO system that works and really contributes value? I would say a very small percentage of the whole.

It should be quality, not ISO that is "ruling" your inspections/deliveries etc.
 
I would really like to reply in more detail, except I have to make a fixture and get parts running. Maybe this afternoon I can revisit this topic. In short:

The local shop is a great shop, if you work in manufacturing, I’d be willing to bet a beer, a couple of their parts are in your shop. Their procedure dictated that the print must be fully dimensioned. I resolved the issue by measuring the 3 or so pieces the guy had made and based on his part off length, I dimensioned the print.

WHICH, if you ascribe to the Japanese mentality of quality, this was the way to do it in the first place. For automobiles, they hit parts with soft tooling, adjust, heat treat and finish, then produce their blue prints.

Your argument of “ISO Mentality” is incorrect. You need a strict regimen of standards to be a machinist. I was taught to be a machinist. Many of the qualities that ISO promotes for manufacturing are basic skills. Some are contradictory.

I was taught as a machinist that my job is to make a part or tool that completes a task. It doesn’t matter what the blueprint says, or a stack of papers say, or 1000 procedures.

When I worked in Tier 1 automotive, it was my responsibility to make parts to print. There was no QA, QS, QMS, etc. I machined the part, I signed my name on the blueprint. I never, not once, got my butt chewed for machining a part NOT TO PRINT. Because the part WORKED. If the part was made to print, it would not have worked.

I worked at a little shop that made zero clearance carbide dies for a gasket maker. If you own any gas tools, chainsaw, weed eater, lawn mower, you have their gaskets. Absolutely amazing work. They had a great attitude, parts should be machined correctly to WORK. No regulations required, no manual needed. Make the part right. Every die I helped build in that shop, made a GOOD first article.
 
You are ALL correct.

:)

This lengthy debate around ISO / QMS / etc. reminds me of other recent debates around regulation (OSHA, accreditation for higher ed, etc.)

The problem always comes down to this: How can you objectively determine that you're going to get the kind of [quality / safety / education / etc.] that you want? "I know good quality when I see it" - that's great, but how can I be sure you are assessing that every time? How can you objectively determine and document this "I-know-it-when-I-see-it" quality? Answer: You draw up rules, or regulations, or ISO procedures, or accreditation standards, or whatever else, and then you assess compliance with those rules / regulations / procedures / standards.

Note that last part carefully: what gets objectively enforced, the only thing that can be objectively assessed, is compliance with the standards. Not quality, not safety, not education, but compliance with the standards. IF the standards are written well, and IF everyone approaches the process in good faith, then hopefully compliance with the standards actually means something with regard to quality / safety / education / etc.

But as we all know too well, there are two major problems with any regulation: First, regulations tend to be written (maybe have to be written?) as one-size-fits-all. ISO and higher ed accreditation attempt to mitigate that by focusing primarily on "doing what you say you will do" - what is actually measured is not the quality per se, but the adherence to your own policies that are supposed to ensure quality. But even when you write your own policies, you inevitably run into the one-size-fits-all problem: policies by their nature are an attempt to categorize and summarize processes and procedures; they attempt to address every possible variation with one set of rules. Yes, you can write in exceptions and qualifications and so on, but if that goes very far, you don't have a policy any more; you have a jumbled mess. Or you can include in the policy a human judgment - whatever the [foreman / quality inspector / dean] says is the final word. But now we're back to the problem of objectively assessing "I-know-it-when-I-see-it."

Second major problem with regulations is that they are implemented by people ... who have to exercise judgment. If someone approaches the regulations as (or if the regulations require) a stickler for every jot and tittle, you get the ridiculous situations described above, where parts can't be approved for stupid reasons. If someone approaches the regulations with too much of a laissez-faire attitude, then you have bridges falling down.

Is the answer to throw out regulation / ISO / accreditation / etc.? That might work if everyone were like those of us who would do it right regardless, simply because we are driven to produce the very best quality we can no matter what. But as we all know, not everyone is like us.

The answer is simple, of course. All we need is for someone invents the magic solution to providing effective objective oversight to human nature. :(
 
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I find the ISO concept borderline insulting to people who give a shit about their job whether it be a machinist or otherwise. It caters to the lowest common denominator not those that are masters of their craft.
In response to the OP, I'm a little further down the road than you but not much, I started a LLC this year but have been doing machine work on the side for about 10 years, bought a Haas CNC last year, I saved up and paid cash. Currently doing business part time until I establish a larger customer base. My plan was to go fulltime in 5 years but that may get pulled in 3 given some opportunities that have come forth, none of which happened overnight and some that are not even machining related. You never know what's around the corner until you take the leap. Good luck.
 
Ok, first of all don't disagree ON SOME LEVEL. But this thread is about starting a new shop, ISO or AS is waaayyy down the road, if the OP chooses (or needs) to pursue it.

You are advocating he start BS ISO stuff on day one. HE SHOULD NOT- he should focus on making quality every time, with the customer in mind. IE if the customer supplies a print with a +/-.01" dim, but tells him (or makes a note) "eh, you can scale that/sawcut it, it doesn't matter really, just a tol thrown on by an inexperienced engineer (etc)" he should be able to get to work from that, not have to document every little detail, and have the customer sign off on it.

I think you didn't read anything I said... Iso habits are far different than iso certs and audits. Iso habits from day one will make everything more effecient.
 
No, but it is the "culture" of ISO that reeks of this. How many places implement a 'good' ISO system that works and really contributes value? I would say a very small percentage of the whole.

It should be quality, not ISO that is "ruling" your inspections/deliveries etc.

Quality and iso go hand in hand. That's really the whole point of it..
Not trying to be an asshole here but, do you have first hand experience on the quality control side of a shop that is iso or as9100 certified? Everything written in the qms should be about how to maintain the expected quality and have metrics on how to rate your quality in all areas.

You keep saying that quality comes first but it's iso that helps you get to quality in the first place.

I'm willing to bet you don't certify your measuring tools....how do you know they are measuring correctly?

Do you check the printed text on your material bars? Does the heat treat lot number match the material cert for the material you bought that's planned in your job? Are you sure you got 7075 instead of 6061? Parts look good and are to spec and quality is good but maybe that part was engineered for 7075 and will now fail and kill someone... Food for thought
 
Quality and iso go hand in hand. That's really the whole point of it..
Not trying to be an asshole here but, do you have first hand experience on the quality control side of a shop that is iso or as9100 certified? Everything written in the qms should be about how to maintain the expected quality and have metrics on how to rate your quality in all areas.

You keep saying that quality comes first but it's iso that helps you get to quality in the first place.

I'm willing to bet you don't certify your measuring tools....how do you know they are measuring correctly?

Do you check the printed text on your material bars? Does the heat treat lot number match the material cert for the material you bought that's planned in your job? Are you sure you got 7075 instead of 6061? Parts look good and are to spec and quality is good but maybe that part was engineered for 7075 and will now fail and kill someone... Food for thought

I know all of that shit. Mat'l certs, documentation, lot #'s, calibration, and/or calibration not req'd ref only, calibrate on use, aql levels, and blah blah. YOU are the one missing the point, it is supposed to be about delivering a quality product, NOT checking boxes.

And really, you think ISO keeps you from using 7075 vs 6061? LMFAO!! Talk about having common sense or not. :rolleyes5:
 
as9100d;3407149[B said:
]Quality and iso go hand in hand.[/B] That's really the whole point of it..
Not trying to be an asshole here but, do you have first hand experience on the quality control side of a shop that is iso or as9100 certified? Everything written in the qms should be about how to maintain the expected quality and have metrics on how to rate your quality in all areas.

You keep saying that quality comes first but it's iso that helps you get to quality in the first place.

I'm willing to bet you don't certify your measuring tools....how do you know they are measuring correctly?

Do you check the printed text on your material bars? Does the heat treat lot number match the material cert for the material you bought that's planned in your job? Are you sure you got 7075 instead of 6061? Parts look good and are to spec and quality is good but maybe that part was engineered for 7075 and will now fail and kill someone... Food for thought

AND ^ NO THEY DON'T. QUALITY is QUALITY. Has nothing to do with ISO bullshit but you can't fathom a shop can do quality work without it for some reason.
 
My bank account as a small shop vs my bank account as an iso shop say otherwise. Green backs are what matter most at the end of the day. We are more productive, less mistakes, faster lead times, cheaper price, more volume, and get ready for it... Higher quality as we have a zero defect culture in our shop as do many other tier2 aerospace shops.
 
I'll say it again, the guy arguing for a "complete ISO/AS environment" has that screen name. I'll take that as "proof" he has something to gain from it, nothing related to quality.

My argument, and see it how you want, is ISO and quality do NOT go hand-in-hand. ISO is a system of 'rules' that you follow, which may or may not be related to actual quality of the parts you make. Quality is quality. I would much rather my supplier call me with a question such as " hey we are finding xx dimension to be right at the low limit*, does it matter/can it be 'fudged'/do we need to inspect it further (to tenths or whatever)" etc, than to reject them, delaying my parts, and possibly increasing the cost next time because they found a ?potential? to lose money...

* I know mr as9100d's shop would NEVER make such a mistake, but in the real world it happens.
 
I would much rather my supplier call me with a question such as " hey we are finding xx dimension to be right at the low limit*, does it matter/can it be 'fudged'/do we need to inspect it further (to tenths or whatever)" etc, than to reject them, delaying my parts, and possibly increasing the cost next time because they found a ?potential? to lose money...

If you're a shop, ISO-certified or not, and your internal procedures don't allow you to call the customer and ask if a slightly out of tolerance part is okay to use-as-is, that's on you. Don't blame ISO because you can't read and chose to write a stupid procedure.
 
I'll say it again, the guy arguing for a "complete ISO/AS environment" has that screen name. I'll take that as "proof" he has something to gain from it, nothing related to quality.

I am pretty sure that is 99.99% correct, no matter what he says. On the other hand there are something like 330 million people in the USA, so there are plenty of weirdos that like things most people don't and without reason. I once had an employee who thought Rosie O'Donnell was hot looking and he was straight and a Republican.
 
Back on trrack.........my advice is to get a job in a small shop for at least 12 months,where you will be in touch with the problems,and pitfalls of a shop........funny thing thing is ..you will say...."how does this guy stay in business"......the answer is contacts,friends,and a network of like minded people built up over years.......they help each other when a machine breaks down,or needs a specialized bit of gear,or a couple of hours on a big machine........without this you wont get past go.......IMHO,the big demand now is for CNC repairers who can actually fix something so it works......and also retrofit and get operational older machines........there a lot of these that have done no work,but the controll is obsolete.This is where the opportunities lie ,not jobbing work for low quote.
 
If you're a shop, ISO-certified or not, and your internal procedures don't allow you to call the customer and ask if a slightly out of tolerance part is okay to use-as-is, that's on you. Don't blame ISO because you can't read and chose to write a stupid procedure.

Bingo. Not sure why folks blame iso and then get upset when they go out of business when they have a health issue come up and can't micro manage their shop. 🙄 Thank God I never have to worry about that!
 
Back on trrack.........my advice is to get a job in a small shop for at least 12 months,where you will be in touch with the problems,and pitfalls of a shop........funny thing thing is ..you will say...."how does this guy stay in business"......the answer is contacts,friends,and a network of like minded people built up over years.......they help each other when a machine breaks down,or needs a specialized bit of gear,or a couple of hours on a big machine........without this you wont get past go.......IMHO,the big demand now is for CNC repairers who can actually fix something so it works......and also retrofit and get operational older machines........there a lot of these that have done no work,but the controll is obsolete.This is where the opportunities lie ,not jobbing work for low quote.

Craigslist worked for me. Posted one ad years ago and it got me a customer that did offload work for boeing. Some time after, we were introduced to as9100d and madcap certs and we're had the option to get them and get more work from this customer. Once we had them it was a piece of cake to get real tier 1 aerospace work. Fast forward today we are a fairly large shop with close to 60 employees. So maybe posting an ad on Craigslist would also be a good start.
 
If you're a shop, ISO-certified or not, and your internal procedures don't allow you to call the customer and ask if a slightly out of tolerance part is okay to use-as-is, that's on you. Don't blame ISO because you can't read and chose to write a stupid procedure.

No it's not on ME. I did not write the procedure, I don't get to decide which 'rules' I can or can't follow. THAT is the whole point.

But you do you. :rolleyes5:
 
You know what is amusing about this ISO vs Quality (ah hemmm) discussion... *everyone* has a horror story about ISO, but no one can list a single thing ISO/AS has really brought to the table other than the "I win more jobs/ we make less scrap (*cough*bullshit*cough*)" How about a single incident where ISO did something? I can name a few negatives right off the bat-

1) rejecting parts that are literally tenths out on a pin that means nothing (we did the ass'y so I know what the function was)
2) accepting parts that were out of print, even though we have "incoming inspections" * :rolleyes5: (ironically part of the same ass'y that our jackass inspector rejected for the pins!)
3) assigning tools to a workstation (not necessarily a bad idea internally, but with no flexibility it's STUPID AF!)
4) un-qualified inspectors. once was struggling to get a job running and come to find out the "quality inspector" was clamping one single toe clamp on the end of the part and "screwing" (twisting back and forth / forcing) the gage pin in AFTER doing the alignment on cmm!

*included that one because our policy (not quality again) only required an inspection cert or something stupid, not an actual inspection for part conformance :willy_nilly:
 








 
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