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Step up transformer

gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
I need some help wiring a 440 v Devlieg 2B-36 machine that just came into my shop. I have 220 manufactured three phase via a Phase Perfect 10 HP converter. I was given a transformer when I bought the Devlieg. I was told the transformer was used to power a similar machine to mine. Also told it was a step up transformer.
unfortunately there was no wiring diagram inside the cabinet. Are the terminals marked x1 x2 x3 the primary 220volt side? Are the terminals marked H1H2 H3 the secondary 440 volt side? Any advise in wiring this up would be greatly appreciated.
 

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gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
This is a second transformer I was given with the Devlieg. Can you tell from this ID plate if it is a step up transformer? Does it look usable to obtain 440 volts output from my Phase perfect input source? Thanks
 

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gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Hang on.. gotta zoom it...

Scheiss! 75 kVA and 454 Mike-Foxtrot Avoir? Fig Bucker!

It was sold as a multi-tap step DOWN from an "as-had" nominal 480 VAC line ranging between 432 VAC and 508 VAC .... taps enough to assure 240 VAC @ low side, or near-as-dammit, and more than close-enough.

Reversing it makes the output off by a tad, but should work OK Voltage-wise.

Do the math as to reversing the numbers for the high-side VS the actual figure for your Phase-Perfect output ... if not right-on 240 VAC, as a P-P output follows your utility mains "actual", not nominal input-side.

The good news that it should WORK... but ..

.... a saner size would be 10 to 12 kVA.

EG: You have a 10 HP Phase-Perfect, "Laws of Physics" figures for kVA to "motor HP" (and the reverse) are common in online calculators.

7.46 kVA @ 1.0 Power Factor, not likely to go over 9.33 kVA, so call it 10 kVA and ta da, we can skip the calculator and seek same HP as kVA as a "rule of thumb'.

TWICE that - 20 kVA - assures the transformer will not become a burden if/as/when the motor has a sharpish demand or the shop is at 105 F all week, but .... any larger and the transformer starts to become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

That "inrush" thing at switch-on, plus "hum" .. which is wasted power off minutely changing the physical size and shape of BOTH the Iron and Copper ... every cycle.

Sorry, no transformers in the fictional City-State of "Diaspar" ....where "no machine may have any moving parts"!

IOW .. a 75 kVA transformer is a LOT more transformer than a 10 HP P-P would want... nigh-on ten TIMES... and has a substantial inrush when first hit with power ALSO!!!

Keeping in mind that 2XX VAC is "lethal" and 4XX VAC even MORE so, carefully 'try it and see'.

Then start scouting a BETTER FIT to your needs .... next week! "Close by" is good. They are bloody expensive to ship!

PS: Step DOWN are dirt-common. Has to do with how powerco blister-packs the electricity.

Step UP are rare. So 'expect' to have to run the most affordable ones in reverse. BFD.

PPS: 220/440, 230/460, 240/480 - or the reverse - are all 1:2 or 2:1 ratios, not terribly critical which, "Delta" implied.

208/416 in the specs imply "Wye".

High side Delta, low side Wye also exist - powerco packaging again.
Might get a skosh off-nominal if reversed (the P-P output .. or a(ny) RPC . .is Delta), but can work. Best hope they have adjusting taps.

Shout-out on PM as you locate candidates.

Weird stuff also shows-up, used, and you don't realy want a Sola Ferro-resonant power "conditioner" transformer, for example!
Thanks for the info. I’ll try a test hook up today And let you know the outcome.
 

gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Did you bother to look first to make sure they aren't dual-voltage motors ? The 2B was a stock machine, made in quantity, and I've never seen one that wasn't 220-440. That doesn't mean there can't be one but it would be unusual.
Yes, that was the first thing I looked for on the motor data tag. Thanks
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Airstrip One, Oceania
Yes, that was the first thing I looked for on the motor data tag. Thanks

Can't trust that, you need to look under the covers to see how the motors are connected. Also, sometimes a motor shop can pull other leads to connect for low voltage. And I'd check all the motors, possible they blew up the spindle motor and just changed the one.

Generally, 220 to 440v transformers are a pita and use a fair amount of electric. That'd be my last choice (have done it once or twice, didn't make me happy.)
 

gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
No load test has me confused. Output leads- H1 and H2 read 440 volts while H3 shows 110 volts. An I missing something? Is it a bad transformer? Thanks
 

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gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
I found this transformer for sale on eBay. Would this work better? Thanks
 

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gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
This is another transformer I found for sale. How does this one look for my application? Thanks
 

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gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
With your help, I was able to wire the first transformer pictured in my post to successfully deliver 440 volts to all three secondary lugs. Today I’m going to fire up the Devlieg. I’ll send a report. Thanks
 

gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Started the Devlieg today. This machine has three motors two of which are 5 HP. I got the table motor to work well, but when I started the spindle motor it tripped off the Phase Perfect converter. I spoke to Phase Technologies tech support and he felt most likely reason the converter tripped off was the large power inrush. The converter was sensing a short and tripping off.
does that sound right? Thanks
 

gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
I’m thinking of upgrading to a Phase perfect 20 HP unit with double voltage( 460 volts). I will have 32 amps of constant power and no need for a transformer. What do you think of that option? Thanks
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Airstrip One, Oceania
Only if there is no clutch and there is significant power-transmission drag & inertia.

There's no clutch on the spindle motor, it just kicks on at whatever speed when you hit the green button. Speeds are chosen by a gearbox. At 2500 it's an upgear, so might have a pretty good drag on the motor.

There's actually five motors on that machine : the spindle, axes traverse (there's dog clutches to select either table or head travel), the platen retract, coolant, and one to clamp and unclamp the toolholders. I remember the traverse motor as being 3 hp, not 5, but could have early-onset alzheimer's.

There's quite a bit of various motors starting and stopping in operation, if I were to run one on a phase converter I'd want a generously-oversized one.

edit: Thinking a little more, there may also be a rapid traverse motor. I never had to crawl under the bed to see, but it makes a different noise when you push the rapid button.
 
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Matt_Maguire

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Location
West-Central Illinois, USA
It’s the spindle motor bill, it’s a “plugger”…

The OP should at least up size the wire & protection to account for the current the head end sees when you start/stop/reverse spindle rotation. All the DeVleigs have plugging motors for the spindle (that’s why they are so big for the HP).

My 2B was born a 230V machine with upsized wires in a few places & has a locked rotor spec of 75amps @ 220… This happens every time you start, stop or reverse the spindle for a duration of 400-800 Milli-secs so all supply wiring to the machine should account for that.

If there’s new modern silicon trickery inside his Phase Perfect converter for protection it likely sees that huge inrush & say's “I’m outta here before the fire” LOL.

First time on a PC with the new software, NO SMILEYS? Shit!

Good luck,
Matt
 
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JST

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2001
Location
St Louis
Plug reversing is a pretty stressful operation. The motor is something a bit worse than a short circuit for an instant during the "reversing".

That's the problem with solid state stuff, vs plain old transformers and RPCs. The silicon in the solid state device has a hard current limit, which the engineers must respect when designing the thing. If you go over the hard current limit, things are damaged, so there is no "give" in the limit.

A 29A device that has a 4 second 150A capability has a 5:1 overload capacity. That's enough to start most motors, but isn't quite enough for plug reversing that motor, evidently.

Idler motors and transformers can supply current up to the point where their voltage drop leaves nothing left. That can often get the job done even when it looks like they should fail. They are heat-limited, so a short plug-reverse won't hurt them.
 

JST

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2001
Location
St Louis
.....................

Wouldn't expect that a Phase-Perfect at 500% load would be outputting waveforms on all three legs that was anywhere near "perfect" as to any of Sine Wave, Voltage, or Phase Balance , either.
I bet you are wrong. If it can put out without current limiting, it will put out a normal output. That's the thing about power electronics.... it works correctly, right up until it doesn't/can't work anymore.

As long as the load never pulls more than the PP can put out, I see no reason why it should put out any bad signal. Most of the problems which would affect that will also draw too much current and trip it off.

What the load does with the voltage may be a different story, but the output will be correct.
 

JST

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2001
Location
St Louis
All a VFD or PP does is "switch the load to the supply". That's why they are efficient, and why they are called "switching" devices.

It just connects a load wire to the DC bus for a given time. Then it switches off, letting the load deal with the current that was developed due to the "volt-seconds" applied. It does that in various combinations of polarity to produce its output. That's the voltage that the "switching device" produces. If it does that, it's working.

When "integrated" by an inductor, such as a motor, it ends up with a decent sine wave of current. The voltage during the "off" time of the pulse may be pretty strange at any time, as the inductor voltage "flies back" to keep the current flowing.

The resulting voltage waveform on the load is dependent on the load characteristics, even when the "switching device " is working fine. Generally, as mentioned, they are used with inductive loads. With a resistive load, you will see the output voltage directly. With an inductive load, the output current will be more continuous, and the output voltage will be discontinuous in a different way between pulses, but the actual pulses won't be different during the "on time" of the pulse.

If the maximum current developed is not too much, the device works fine, producing a train of voltage pulses with changing width over the "sine wave" full cycle.

If it has an overcurrent condition, the outout pulse is terminated early. Then the resulting voltage waveform may be odd-looking, distorted from the normal one. Some "switching devices" may simply shut down, others do "pulse-by-pulse" limiting, which lets the load continue to be driven.

Now, if you have no idea what type the load will be, and need clean power, like a solar inverter for powering a house or business, then you may want to put in a "sine filter". It will produce a generally sine waveform output over a wide range of loads, if decently designed. I do not know if the PP incorporates much of a sine filter.

That filter adds impedance, and will be more affected by load, but even then, if the load impedance is within the limits of the design, the output voltage won't get too squirrely. Once you hit overcurrent, the sky is the limit, you can get pretty odd waveforms.
 

gregfortin

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
All the help is really appreciated. After considering everything, I’m convinced my 10 HP Perfect Phase converter is not producing enough power to run the mill. I’ve decided to buy a new 20 HP double voltage converter. That should give enough power and I won’t need a transformer. Thanks
 








 
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