Stick welder for bad weather

[john.k]

I did one shed with frames made from 3"pipe and lattice ,and the lifting of the frames was very hairy .....If you use more than two legs on the slings ,it gets very tricky as the frame stands upright .....I was real worried the pipe would bend or kink and collapse......anyhoo,no problems there ,but the concretors had made one corner pier low ,and it was right up on the anchor bolts.

 

[Strostkovy]

From what I've read.................there's no engineered truss for the "80' clear span". Which is patently stupid. Which also leads one to believe that there's no WP. Another idiot trap.

So..............there's absolutely nothing wrong with the other-than-smart suggestions for consumables.

Weld on boys!!!!!! LOL

The trusses will be engineered and the structure will be permitted, but in a fairly construction friendly area. The welds will have to be done as signed off by an engineer, but I can specify the process as long as the engineer agrees.
I can get single I beams that will span 80 feet with snow load no problem, but they are very heavy and expensive. A truss will be around 1/4-1/3 of the weight of an I beam, and I can add in extra features as I want them and can use formed plate in a lot of areas which is way cheaper per pound than rolled profiles.

 

[crickets]

We get decent 4+ months of dry weather in the Coastal Range... I wouldn't bother with welding in the rain - there is plenty of pre-welding prep, so use the wet weather to get that squared away. The moment weather turns, then start welding.

County inspectors don't look at the welds, but if you're not AWS certified you may need to call for a special inspection to get the signoff on the welds.

 

[Strostkovy]

We get decent 4+ months of dry weather in the Coastal Range... I wouldn't bother with welding in the rain - there is plenty of pre-welding prep, so use the wet weather to get that squared away. The moment weather turns, then start welding.

County inspectors don't look at the welds, but if you're not AWS certified you may need to call for a special inspection to get the signoff on the welds.

I figured I'd use that for the concrete, but realistically this is more than a one year project anyway.

 

[crickets]

I figured I'd use that for the concrete, but realistically this is more than a one year project anyway.

You won't have the engineering done for the foundation ? That may be a problem In my experience county doesn't really care who pours concrete, but they want the engineering paperwork for the foundation, and to visually verify the footings.

 

[metalmagpie]

I used to build fishing boats in the rain. Totally miserable job. Getting shocked dozens of times a day. In fact, that was the last straw for me. After 13 years in the shipyards I walked off that miserable fishing boat and never went back.

In places that are more together, they make tall canopy structures to keep the rain off the steel structure. Those had to be moved by cranes.

It's one thing to know how to build things out of steel. It's entirely another to be responsible for a building involving structural steel. It's a huge layer of inspection, permitting and bureaucracy you have to know how to deal with. Not trying to scare you, but you might look into that part so you go into the project with your eyes open.

As for not having a crane, well, I think when it comes to heavy equipment you're always much better off buying something used (wisely), then using it on your job, then selling it again. If you do it right you can even potentially make money doing it.
It would take some bucks to buy a Grove or equivalent, though.

metalmagpie

 

[SShep71]

Strostkovy,​

We use all the typical CC/CV setups in under water welding, red, blue, yellow, grid power, gas/diesel, etc. The DC isn't a problem, you will probably get "fuzzed" a few times doing the welding, not buzzed...fuzzed. Underwater it is different, we do not hook a ground up to the welded component, just attach the ground to a plate and drop it about 10' down in the water column. The only thing that goes down to the work site other than the umbilical is the stinger. There is no real issue, every time the lead goes "hot" (knife switch is closed to provide current) I would get a fuzzy tingly feeling. Any cuts, scrapes, or anything like that would make things interesting, the old filling in my tooth would sure let me know it is still there. Overall nothing too harsh, unless you get in between the path of electricity from the rod back to the grounding plate, that will wake you up. DC is fine in wet conditions, DCSP or DCRP, typically I have always used DCSP wet. Never AC welding in wet, obviously (I hope). Anyway, the rods I used for practice and small welding stuff was just 7018 heavy dipped in wax, the flux heats up and the rod burns fine underwater, the flux does the same thing underwater as it does in air. Normal wet rods are different, but similar to 7018 I think. One thing to note, the Hydrogen effect is still there from the moisture. Wet welding is an entirely different code than the standard AWS D1.1, wet welding falls under AWS D3.6. Which reduces the strength of the welded component.

There are several variations of structural beam that are suitable. H beams in 80' span will have to be heavier, I beams "S" shape will be similar. The typical web of an H beam can be reinforced on both sides by plate steel to span longer distances while supporting the same load, a cap channel can be added to add additional strength to span, or flange-to-flange stiffener plates can be welded in to support the member. The beam doesn't need to be heavier, but does need to be taller. Any engineer that is worth a damn would know all of this, the AISC manual spells it out pretty well. A fabricated truss is not a bad idea, there is just a lot more engineering that needs to be done to account for the unknown properties, unlike mill steel which is well known and documented properties. Good luck

 

[Strostkovy]

Strostkovy,​

We use all the typical CC/CV setups in under water welding, red, blue, yellow, grid power, gas/diesel, etc. The DC isn't a problem, you will probably get "fuzzed" a few times doing the welding, not buzzed...fuzzed. Underwater it is different, we do not hook a ground up to the welded component, just attach the ground to a plate and drop it about 10' down in the water column. The only thing that goes down to the work site other than the umbilical is the stinger. There is no real issue, every time the lead goes "hot" (knife switch is closed to provide current) I would get a fuzzy tingly feeling. Any cuts, scrapes, or anything like that would make things interesting, the old filling in my tooth would sure let me know it is still there. Overall nothing too harsh, unless you get in between the path of electricity from the rod back to the grounding plate, that will wake you up. DC is fine in wet conditions, DCSP or DCRP, typically I have always used DCSP wet. Never AC welding in wet, obviously (I hope). Anyway, the rods I used for practice and small welding stuff was just 7018 heavy dipped in wax, the flux heats up and the rod burns fine underwater, the flux does the same thing underwater as it does in air. Normal wet rods are different, but similar to 7018 I think. One thing to note, the Hydrogen effect is still there from the moisture. Wet welding is an entirely different code than the standard AWS D1.1, wet welding falls under AWS D3.6. Which reduces the strength of the welded component.

There are several variations of structural beam that are suitable. H beams in 80' span will have to be heavier, I beams "S" shape will be similar. The typical web of an H beam can be reinforced on both sides by plate steel to span longer distances while supporting the same load, a cap channel can be added to add additional strength to span, or flange-to-flange stiffener plates can be welded in to support the member. The beam doesn't need to be heavier, but does need to be taller. Any engineer that is worth a damn would know all of this, the AISC manual spells it out pretty well. A fabricated truss is not a bad idea, there is just a lot more engineering that needs to be done to account for the unknown properties, unlike mill steel which is well known and documented properties. Good luck

All very good information.

The primary reason for going with a fabricated truss, other than the cost benefit, is that I want a low maintenance standing seam stainless steel roof with reasonable slope, instead of a flat roof that require constant upkeep. If I run sloped I beams I would have one side of the building way too tall (which completes that wall's structure due to buckling and wind concerns) and if I were to make a peak in the middle with I beams I would have to have posts in the middle. Which isn't necessarily a deal breaker, but posts tend to be in the least convenient place possible.

A fabricated truss does allow for some interesting options. I can integrate a catwalk in the structure, and I can make the bottom surface perfectly suitable for mounting conduit and other utilities. The cross members between trusses can be elevated to allow conduit or plumbing to offset up when it turns 90 degrees, keeping everything very clean.

There will also be a walkway about 10' off the ground with all plumbing, electrical raceways, and ducting running the perimeter for easy access for new machinery.

 

[SShep71]

The fabricated truss makes sense, especially for snow loads, wind shear, etc. But there are other ways to mitigate those concerns, not that your idea is flawed. Just some other ideas to keep in mind, a heavy beam is only necessary for snow load if you cannot find another way to shed the weight. A steep roofline is the immediate go to. You don't even need an excessive roof pitch, a roof with an adequate system of melting the snow and draining it off the roof is a perfect example. Back in the NE region, a lot of older houses have steep rooflines so the snow sheds under it's own weight, then again a lot of houses have lower pitches to the roof because when the buildings were built insulation was no where near where it is today. Heating the house in the winter would also heat the roof, the snow would melt and the weight shed. However, as the years past and houses were renovated or improved internally, the now adequate insulation would prevent the melting and cause structural issues under snow loads. It isn't uncommon for this to be overlooked by young engineers or contractors. When I lived back there, especially when I was younger there were several instances of a collapsed roof or instance close to it. The best bet, is to find an engineer that knows his/her stuff and get multiple solutions. Reach out into the industry and see what companies have solutions for your circumstances.

If you want some ideas on what you are looking at for a solution, or ideas on what is being used currently. Find a building that is dedicated for human occupation (a school, a hospital, hell even a Walmart), walk around in there and look up at the steel and the methods of connection. The regional/local building codes dictate the FOS and the minimum capacity for snow loads, rain loads, wind shear, etc.
You wouldn't necessarily need mid support posts to account for a high peak roofline. From the supporting beam up to the peak, yes, but then down to the ground, no. That is where the reinforced webb beams come in, as long as that load can translate vertically into the foundation that is all that matters. There is a section on composite "W" shapes in the AISC manual, or look into web doubling. It all comes down to the building code, the warm burning sensation the engineer gets when you tell them what you want, and what factor of safety do you and the engineer think is appropriate. Remember you can add to a FOS but not take away.

 

[john.k]

I paid a lot more to have my shed clear span.......and if I did it again ,I would have posts and much cheaper frame.

 

[Strostkovy]

I paid a lot more to have my shed clear span.......and if I did it again ,I would have posts and much cheaper frame.

Is that a work shed or a storage shed?

 

[john.k]

Hobby ....I had to sign an undertaking with the council to get approval for a 2500sq ft shed .

 

[Garwood]

You don't need to fab a truss to use I-beams for a center pitch roof.

I've seen several nice buildings built with beams set flat then each purlin has a short pedestal supporting it the proper height to form the pitch. Makes a very nice building and very fast to build.

 

[StormWutzke]

If inspection will be required you are going to run into problems in the rain. Hydrogen causes embrittled metal in the heat affected zone. They are working on alloys to get around this but I haven't heard of a rod being made. Austenitic stainless isn't that affected but you aren't going to argue that point.

You can probably work out something with a tarp or umbrella that is good enough and pick a day it isn't pouring. I welded outside up in Bellingham all the time with no problem. I don't know how much more you get then they do. I know it's a fair bit without the paninsula to block it.