Struggle Finding New Employees.

[BluishInventor]

So I do feel if its a person who really loves this trade and being challenged and enhancing their skills, this really is a great place to be.

As a CNC nerd, this is what attracts me to a company. Pay is a part of the equation, as always, but nothing keeps me at a company more than being around like minded people and flourishing in that environment.

 

[BluishInventor]

target ($13-14)

Lol, Target in Bellevue, WA has their minimum at $24... 50k/year to keep the underwear planogram up to date.

 

[PDW]

Its a generational thing, people joining the workforce today werent raised to be hard working and respectful or have pride in their work.

No, it IS a generational thing but it's got nothing to do with pride in work, respect etc.

It has to do with the examples set by company after company fucking over their workers at every possible opportunity, treating them like easily replaceable clones and laying them off at the first sign of a downturn.

If you don't GIVE respect and loyalty, you can't EXPECT it.

What's happened is, people realised that all the talk about valuing employees was just that. Talk.

So employees are basically acting as small business people. Their essential interest is in their own welfare and advancement. They're not grateful for a job because they know they're getting paid the bare minimum that their employers can get away with paying. OF COURSE they walk away.

You can get top quality people but you have to pay top quality money and work with those employees to make sure they're happy & secure.

Otherwise - shrug. Buy robots. Lots of robots.

I'm retired so I don't give a damn.

PDW

 

[Seesecurity]

No, it IS a generational thing but it's got nothing to do with pride in work, respect etc.

It has to do with the examples set by company after company fucking over their workers at every possible opportunity, treating them like easily replaceable clones and laying them off at the first sign of a downturn.

If you don't GIVE respect and loyalty, you can't EXPECT it.

What's happened is, people realised that all the talk about valuing employees was just that. Talk.

So employees are basically acting as small business people. Their essential interest is in their own welfare and advancement. They're not grateful for a job because they know they're getting paid the bare minimum that their employers can get away with paying. OF COURSE they walk away.

You can get top quality people but you have to pay top quality money and work with those employees to make sure they're happy & secure.

Otherwise - shrug. Buy robots. Lots of robots.

I'm retired so I don't give a damn.

PDW

Yes.
Maybe they saw their parent's and grandparent's jobs offshored so corporations can save a buck on wages and benefits, saw profit put before people in every aspect of life and reciprocated in kind.
Gone are the jobs for life with good enough pay and benefits that one partner can stay home and look after the kids/house, they've been conditioned since the start of the 80's that it's every man for himself and loyalty/morals are considered a weakness. Covid has just exacerbated this.
We are reaping what we have sowed, as an employer I have come to terms with a totally different worker/employer landscape than when I entered the workforce.

 

[alek95]

No, it IS a generational thing but it's got nothing to do with pride in work, respect etc.

This is the correct answer.

The younger generation is the most educated generation ever, but has gotten quite bitter because they have entered the workforce in an extremely volatile time.

-Rents are sky high
-Home ownership is out of reach for most young people
-You have to give an arm and a leg to get an education, and an university diploma isn't as valuable as it once was because so many people are educated. It's almost expected that you attend college.
-Wages have not kept up with inflation or cost of living

Many young adults are finding it hard to even afford to move out of their parents home in their 20s.

In that kind of situation, concepts such as pride in work, respect, loyalt to a company, etc quickly lose meaning.

 

[jccaclimber]

A couple years ago one of the old guys was explaining to me how he took his first job for $NotMuch back in the stone age when he started working. He then proceeded to complain about how much more people want now.
I poked his number into an inflation calculator and find out it was the equivalent of ~$100k/year now.
We then compared what it cost him to go to school then vs. for us now.

Short answer, inflation adjusted it cost me 4x as much to go to school, and starting wages even with the last inflation are still half of what he was making.

I've gotten lucky. Some combination of skill, effort, work, dumb luck, and help/guidance has meant that I've done fine, but I sure can understand why a lot of people aren't as excited about it.

Remember how tricky it was getting started 30/40 years ago? Now picture that with higher rents and half the pay.

 

[Ries]

Wow, I'm out of touch on MA state policy...

The prevailing wage laws are federal. Federally funded projects like roads, subways, airports, etc. I have had to pay my guy’s prevailing wage a few times for on site install- everybody on the jobsite is covered by the law. For the parts of my work we fabricate in my shop, prevailing wage does not apply.

 

[broke]

I have been trying to hire a CNC machinist for a while now. I also needed to replace an operator due to a retirement of a part timer. I found a kid from church who I brought on a $21 and he has proven to be a stud. 4 weeks after stepping into a machine shop for the first time and he is already able to make his own simple programs on the prototraks and has only made the simplest errors while loading/unloading. He shows up on time and sweeps up when he is waiting.

My right hand man has been here for 10 years and just did the programming on a potentially 7 figure job. He worked at a bike shop before this with no previous experience. All told his package is around 80k without much overtime.

They both have an interest in the work we do and it shows in their dedication to solving the customers problems. Neither had to pay a cent for the tools they use.

All that to say I think there are a lot of people who put too much stock in "years of experience" as opposed to a natural interest and fulfilment in the work. I'm going to start hiring smart kids who want to feel proud about the work they do and train to be profitable here.

 

[hanermo]

Offering 50$ / hr, aka 8000$ /mo for 160 std monthly hours, will find plenty of qualified people from all over the US, willing to relocate.
Thats 96.000$ /y.
Companies like tsla, all the new robotics makers, etc etc. pay 100-200k for qualified workers with experience and skills.

In germany, base worker pay is typically 55€ burdened, at least.
Machinists get a lot more.
Similar in japan, scandinavia.

IF Your business cannot pay 50$/hr than one needs to re-calibrate the business and the pricing.
Everyone else has already done so, scandinavia and germany and japan are thriving.

 

[hanermo]

Yes. Agree.
No.
After -- 2 years they will all move to places where they get paid 100% more.

Plan for it.

I have been trying to hire a CNC machinist for a while now. I also needed to replace an operator due to a retirement of a part timer. I found a kid from church who I brought on a $21 and he has proven to be a stud. 4 weeks after stepping into a machine shop for the first time and he is already able to make his own simple programs on the prototraks and has only made the simplest errors while loading/unloading. He shows up on time and sweeps up when he is waiting.

My right hand man has been here for 10 years and just did the programming on a potentially 7 figure job. He worked at a bike shop before this with no previous experience. All told his package is around 80k without much overtime.

They both have an interest in the work we do and it shows in their dedication to solving the customers problems. Neither had to pay a cent for the tools they use.

All that to say I think there are a lot of people who put too much stock in "years of experience" as opposed to a natural interest and fulfilment in the work. I'm going to start hiring smart kids who want to feel proud about the work they do and train to be profitable here.

 

[Micmac1]

I have been trying to hire a CNC machinist for a while now. I also needed to replace an operator due to a retirement of a part timer. I found a kid from church who I brought on a $21 and he has proven to be a stud. 4 weeks after stepping into a machine shop for the first time and he is already able to make his own simple programs on the prototraks and has only made the simplest errors while loading/unloading. He shows up on time and sweeps up when he is waiting.

My right hand man has been here for 10 years and just did the programming on a potentially 7 figure job. He worked at a bike shop before this with no previous experience. All told his package is around 80k without much overtime.

They both have an interest in the work we do and it shows in their dedication to solving the customers problems. Neither had to pay a cent for the tools they use.

All that to say I think there are a lot of people who put too much stock in "years of experience" as opposed to a natural interest and fulfilment in the work. I'm going to start hiring smart kids who want to feel proud about the work they do and train to be profitable here.

I agree, if they enjoy the work, they tend to be great employees, however its hard to give the new guy 5 figure material/casting for a 1 piece job, although I have other guys who can do it, we need another guy who can do this type of work as this is where our backlog often is. Casting houses are killing us on blowing past lead times which in turn really messes with the schedule, especially with rated work. We are working on extending lead times to help out but that does not help us with the already won work.

 

[jccaclimber]

Yes. Agree.
No.
After -- 2 years they will all move to places where they get paid 100% more.

Plan for it.

That last part depends on how fast they get raises and how much they think they are learning.

 

[cnctoolcat]

IF Your business cannot pay 50$/hr than one needs to re-calibrate the business and the pricing.
Everyone else has already done so, scandinavia and germany and japan are thriving

The United States is still a feisty competitor---it's one of the things that got us here.

Small shops across this land quote and run jobs for $50 per hour or less...hard to pay it all out in wages.

When Chinese machine shops are what, $15 per hour shop rate? Even at $50 rate, the US is still getting out-competed on tons of work.

But Americans are scrappy, and a guy with some paid-for machines in his garage can make damn good money running jobs at $50 or less. And feel like a king when he gets the occasional job at $250-500 per hour!

The jobs that can pay $50 wages are mostly at larger companies getting $150+ shop rates across the board.

"Just pay more" only holds water if the company can actually afford to. If you're a 2-axis turning and 3-axis milling shop, and that's basically all you will ever be (like millions of others throughout the world), then the numbers are just different.

ToolCat

 

[F35Machinist]

problem is today nobody is willing to train people who don't have experience

I hired a trainee once and that is not a mistake I will soon repeat. The least amount that a serious trainee will accept in my area is 25/hr. An experienced machinist is 40-50/hr. The trainee does not earn his keep for at least 6-12 months and is a drain on resources. I would go so far as to say that the value the trainee brings is maybe around -10$/hr due to slowing others down. Once the trainee is capable and trained, he is worth the market rate of 40-50/hr and you better start paying him that or else he will just find another job. Why would I spend my time and money training someone who will demand full price when they are finally trained when I can just hire someone useful right off the bat at full price? What does the added 6-12 months of training time do for me other than waste my money and time?

I will leave it to the foolish or kind hearted to train newcomers in this industry.

 

[CarbideBob]

I will leave it to the foolish or kind hearted to train newcomers in this industry.

Someone has to.
If you train your own you don't have the problem of breaking old habits or the arguments that start with "This is the way we did it in my old shop".
Sail on my ship and you do it my way.
Since I am willing to do the training I have never had a problem finding employees.
In fact I have a waiting list and I do not pay 40-50 per hour.

For many having employees is frustrating. I so love having employees.
I love teaching and training the skills.
Respect even the "poison" guy/gal and why they do this. Bring them into the fold as much as you can.
All this takes time and energy to the point of exhaustion sometimes. As the boss this is your job..

 

[boosted]

Someone has to.
If you train your own you don't have the problem of breaking old habits or the arguments that start with "This is the way we did it in my old shop".
Sail on my ship and you do it my way.
Since I am willing to do the training I have never had a problem finding employees.
In fact I have a waiting list and I do not pay 40-50 per hour.

For many having employees is frustrating. I so love having employees.
I love teaching and training the skills.
Respect even the "poison" guy/gal and why they do this. Bring them into the fold as much as you can.
All this takes time and energy to the point of exhaustion sometimes. As the boss this is your job..

I think it depends on your environment. In a job shop like mine where we are firefighting all day, training a low-skill employee is a real drain. If we had a couple of horizontals on LPP's with parts that need loading, washing, etc... it would make a lot more sense.

Also, personally, I really struggle with having capacity to do "mentor" type work, because I am still the most important contributor for programming and troubleshooting. My impression is that it gets a lot easier to delegate once you break out of the <10 employee size range, but have not found the formula to getting that big. The company was much more profitable at 2 employees than at 7.

 

[ttrager]

Lol, Target in Bellevue, WA has their minimum at $24... 50k/year to keep the underwear planogram up to date.

I hired a trainee once and that is not a mistake I will soon repeat. The least amount that a serious trainee will accept in my area is 25/hr. An experienced machinist is 40-50/hr. The trainee does not earn his keep for at least 6-12 months and is a drain on resources. I would go so far as to say that the value the trainee brings is maybe around -10$/hr due to slowing others down. Once the trainee is capable and trained, he is worth the market rate of 40-50/hr and you better start paying him that or else he will just find another job. Why would I spend my time and money training someone who will demand full price when they are finally trained when I can just hire someone useful right off the bat at full price? What does the added 6-12 months of training time do for me other than waste my money and time?

I will leave it to the foolish or kind hearted to train newcomers in this industry.

There are two, and only two possibilities for having "qualified and experienced" employees in any Industry: 1) You hire someone so experienced you can basically black-box them into a position with minimum hand holding and continue to pay them enough they can't be "black boxed" out from under you, or 2) You provide Training to whatever level is required. In my opinion you stand a better chance here, even if not guaranteed, to develop loyalty from that person. Because you took care of them beyond throwing a paycheck at them after a weeks worth of asking them to do the job.

There are no other options in hiring someone as an employee.

#1 is of course the easiest choice around, provided the job market is "flooded" enough with people like that looking for a Job. What I've experience where I'm at, as well as listening to 40 year machinists here, is that the pool of "hot shot" machinists out there has dropped over the years. Forget "hot shot", some of the people applying for a Centerless Grinding position last year had no machining experience whatsoever. Where are the not-so-good Machinists as well?

#2 is a very workable option . . . depending. In the end it's your only option if the pool of people out there with the technical skills AND the ATTITUDE has dropped off to a point you just can't find people. It does however require SKILLED mentoring and training. Many people who are experts at doing are completely worthless at Training. It's two different things entirely, and, depending on the person, the guy over "there" who knows how to do (X) super good may be the last person you want to hand a Trainee over to.

If you don't have the . . . solid and reliable . . . capability to train people internally to a level you find satisfactory, then you are out of options except for #1. My view is more options are better.

I lean a little more in Carbidebob's direction on this a couple of posts above.

 

[reggie_obe]

Do your current employees have friends at other shops? What makes the move from them to you not worth it?
You say your rates are equal to the local area, what does that mean? A shop I used to use was very proud of their pay rates, but the simple fact is that $15/hour doesn't bring the experts running and they just didn't understand that.

$15 an hour is the territory of Home Depot starting pay.

 

[DanielG]

Why would I spend my time and money training someone who will demand full price when they are finally trained when I can just hire someone useful right off the bat at full price?

Because there aren't enough people to hire at full price? Your choice often isn't $100k/yr for a machinist or $50k/yr for a trainee that in 6-12 months will be a $100k/yr machinist. It's $0k/yr for 18 months while I try to fill the $100k/yr machinist position.

 

[hanermo]

As plenty of owners here have said ..
lots of people only get paid 25-30$ .. for some time, often years.
Location, lack of formal skills, stuff.
But such people c/would get 40-50$/hr in other locations, and would get hired right away, if they had been setting up and programming and running parts on typical haas vmcs, or similar, for more than 2 years.

Expecting, as an owner, good workers at 25$ is a major error.
Even if you started them as cleaners or machine tenders.

Also..
A proper good 50$/hr professional guy will do about 150%, aka 50% more, quality production than anyone else on the team who grew up just-doing.
YES, they will.
There is a HUGE difference in quality and quantity of production from a really good, experienced, trained professional vs a typical worker.

Example:
I recently paid 3k+ for 2-3 world-class pro woodworkers to help me set up my very expensive deluxe log sauna - a demo model for customers.
They were about 2x faster than I am, 3-4x more productive at least, with excellent quality.
My own output increased perhaps 50% during the 3 days we worked together.

I´m good, but not a professional industrial woodworker.
(After) Seeing/practicing with them - how the real pros do it, I have no problem doing the same/similar for similar-but-less results.
(These are real pros from finland, with 20-30 years pro experience. They are generally not available for hire. A friend did me a favour.)

Exactly the same applies to metalworking and cnc trades.
A really good guy does 50% more results than others.
I´ve trained many people.

It´s an error thinking that I/we cannot pay 50$/hr.
The right way to think about it is that we always make 150% over the workers pay .. thus better workers make us as owners more money.
A 25$/h guy brings us 62$, a 50$ guy brings us 125$, about 60$ more, or about double the marginal profit vs the cheaper guy.

There is nothing wrong with paying a guy 50$/hr vs 25$ an hour --
and nothing wrong expecting him to make 50% (not 150%) better results/production in general.
Fixtures, work stops, simple automation, all can make a huge difference in production and results.

Sometimes, even just buying the right tool, for the right guy, can make a huge difference for lots of extra moolah -- $$.
Even a very expensive tool.
E:
A NSK == Nakanishi spindle for deburring or engraving.
6000$ plus bits.
IF You are doing manual deburring for whatever reason, You might make a lot more money with an NSK spindle.
And you might double your profits with the right 50$/h guy.

A really good guy with the nakanishi spindle can possibly make x units more/day.
One does not care what he costs -- if he costs more and produces more this is excellent.