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Suggestions for BT30 Dual Contact Tool Holders for a Brother Speedio S700Xd1

Thanks for the input. Would I be able to hear an issue or see it in the finish. I haven't noticed anything yet but now I am concerned.
Runout, which you can measure, and taper accuracy are the main issues with cheap toolholders. Who are you using for pull studs? I use TJ Davies which were around $13 a year ago.
 
For roughing, surely use a side lock. The runout different isn't much. I was really surprised to find this. I bought a few SK from Mari when I bought my first Brother. They are nice, nothing wrong, collet setup just didn't work as well as I thought they would. Be sure to torque the nut, just tightening with a spanner might not get them tight enough. Then indicate for runout, just so you know what it actually measures. I hand tightened (pretty darn tight) with a spanner the first time, but my high torque machine was stopping so fast the nut loosened enough the end mill pulled out. That's another thing for side locks, the end mill never pulls out. YMMV of course, but I know I'm not the only one suggesting side locks at times instead of collets.
I really like the stubby Mari sidelocks.
 
One thing I don’t think mentioned so far in this thread but has been discussed lots before in other threads is that when doing any kind of roughing with the 30 taper keeping the gauge length short is important. This is why so many gravitate towards the set screw tool holders.
 
+1 for Maritool. Have a couple dozen for my Brother with a standard spindle (non BBT). ER's 16 to 32, sidelocks and saw arbors. Very happy with the quality.

Anyone ever try thier BT30 Hydraulic Holders ?. Any reason to use one ?. Never tried Hydraulic holders before.
 
Yes, and I love them. As easy to swap tools in as a side lock but better runout and no notch is needed in the shank. Although I am leaning heavily towards shrink fit with a $600 hand held induction heater for the tools I only change when they die.
 
Anyone ever try thier BT30 Hydraulic Holders ?. Any reason to use one ?. Never tried Hydraulic holders before.
All our finishing tools bigger than 1/4" go in Mari hydraulics. 1/4" and under go in Rego Fix Powrgrip, and roughing tools go in Mari stubby sidelocks. I am super happy with this setup. Our tool life holding pretty tight tolerances is downright ludicrous.

I've got an .081" Mitsubishi MVS drill in a PG holder that made 400,000 holes (not a typo) with .0015" true position at the BOTTOM of a .753" deep hole. The drill is on display on my desk. 😄

Spring collets from any brand won't let that kind of thing happen, in my experience. When we went to PG holders, I was almost hesitant to believe the gains we made. Surface finish, tool life, harmonics dampening, process reliability, the whole package. It was actually a quality of life improvement. Butcha gotta pay for the experience.
 
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I would recommend only buying SK holders from Nikken. I have tried other brands of SK and there was a huge difference (runout, pullout, everything). You would be better off using the cheapest ER collets than off brand SK. I like hydraulic holders for milling and low runout applications these days. I have Maritool hydraulic holders and they work just fine for what I do. The biggest advantage for me for hydraulics is easy changing of tools and no chip/dust contamination. I like cheap ER collet chucks for drills, taps and reamers. I just check the taper for runout and if it's below .0002" then its good enough for most drills. Shars sells them for 50 bucks each.
 
I'm going to go against the grain here... Note that I'm in the UK in metric land and can't easily use maritool (who ought to be a top choice)

I bought a load of dual contact ER holders with my new S700X2. I'm disappointed... They are fast to change out, cost about £85 each and 5 micron collets add about £25-30. I like CTS for extra coolant flow

I've bought a bunch of hydraulic and some were not as good as I hoped (returned). I like the Big Kaiser hydraulic. Zero runout and I mostly own the jet though type (that don't need collets), but recently picked up a 16mm traditional with the bypass collets which is excellent!! (And only 45mm projection). Prices are £300-380

However, star buy are the Bilz shrink holders (with mediocre coolant bypass jets). £120 each in dual contact. So about the same as an ER holder. Runout is sub 2 microns *at the flutes*. I'm using a DIY shrink solution using an induction heater designed for garages to loosen stuck bolts. Everything I could ask for for heating but lacks cooling (5 mins under a USB fan).


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I'm budget orientated and my conclusion is:

Too few tool holders is a real hassle...

The ER pull out on heavy roughing, high runout and leave a poor surface finish (even knocking them about). However useful to have some! Prefer to have bought Nikken (sounds like they are excellent!), but I didn't...

Shrink are so cheap I'm mostly stocking up on them, about 3:1 over hydraulic

Hydraulic are "better". Easy to swap. Short. Much better coolant jets. Damping for 3d contour work. But they are 3x the price and possibly not suitable for very heavy roughing

Side lock sound great for roughing. I'm not sure all holders are equal though. Maritool seem to invest in having them concentric to a high degree?

I also quite like the Big Kaiser FCR inserted tool.

Ripper roughers work quite well for alu. 75 cubes is low spindle load on a 16k. The Hoffmann slotmaker is my choice but Garr/MA Ford much cheaper.

Send me a PM if you want to swap notes?
 
This is what 75 cu in looks like on a Speedio. Params broadly from BrotherFrank. I broke the Hoffmann endmill (much lower machining forces) and this is with the replacement Garr tool (1/3 the cost). Other than steam is boiling off the end mill it's running at only a few blips of spindle load so in struggling to see why I can't double the feed...

With a budget 40mm long finisher and the shrink holder I can read the screen in the reflection from the finishing pass

 
I help set up a lot of new Speedio users, so this is a topic I give a lot of consideration to. This is getting especially more complicated as we move into a 5 axis world, where reach and nose diameter become more important than they have before. Just to put some data on it - I've been with Yamazen for about 18 months, and I've sold more 5 axis Speedios than 3/4 axis ones. The new M and U series are seriously popular.

Baseline; I think everyone should have a 3/8" sidelock rougher holder. Even in a 5 axis world, you're mostly doing your primary roughing from A90. Currently, I like the Lyndex model with peripheral coolant holes. It doesn't have the super short gauge length of Mari, but I gave up on chasing MRR a while ago and having perfect coolant application is a bigger deal for process reliability than a minimal gain in stick-out length.

Besides a couple of drill chucks and face mill holders, I break it down into a sort of Good/Better/Best:

Good- Quality ER holders from Maritool or NT. The NT ones are super nice, and Yamazen will beat Maritool on the pricing. More important than the brand though, is that you set up to assemble them properly - you do need a torque wrench (with adaptor), and I would get a cheap ultrasonic cleaner, as well as add Kimwipes and acetone to your tool assembly routine. I tend to do everything in ER16, with a handful of ER32.'

ER is actually OK. It really falls flat on it's face in big shop environments where operator quality is marginal. ER performs quite well if assembled properly and cared for - and that is where it (and any other collet system) really goes to shit. If I was starting out, I would get going with ER, knowing that those holders will become my backup, drill, tap, etc holders as I climb the exotic tool holding ladder.

Better- Shrink. Shrink fit is the definitive bang per buck holder solution out there. If you are just getting started, the handheld induction units work just fine, and if you can't figure out how to rig up a little air blast station to cool them, you probably shouldn't be buying a Speedio. These are so simple to make, I wouldn't get too fussy about brands - everyone is making a pretty decent shrink fit holder these days. There is a bit of a dead spot in the market for Big+ in long reach as is necessary for the U and M machines, but I think the vendors are going to be stepping in to address that here in good time.

Yes, you do have the investment in the shrinker unit that you'll need to make as your shop expands, and they can get a bit absurd on the price. Having said that, they work pretty well with inexperienced operators with just a bit of training, and (unlike collets) there is little that can go wrong.

Best- RegoFix PG. The only downside to the RegoFix PG system is the cost. Across every other metric, it is the head and shoulders leader in grip (usually about 2x everything else), rigidity, dampening, ease-of-use, coolant through options (the CF collets are really expensive, but incredible).

Let me put a number on it - a very nice ER32 collet on a half-inch end mill, when properly assembled (bone dry, torqued properly), has a twist torque of about 100ft_lb. Shrink is about 130 (very dependent on nose diameter), hydraulics about 90, really high precision/on size collet systems like Big Mega Baby and SK are at about 150. If the shank or collet of those systems have any oil on them at assembly, reduce the twist torque by about 20%.

RegoFix PG15? Twists the shank of the tool with 225ft_lb. Even if I lose 20% due to sloppy assembly, I'm still significantly higher than any other system in existence.

My personal view is that a mix of ER and Shrink is where 90% of shops would be happy with price/performance. Very high revenue work where surface finish, cycle time, and process reliability are critical? RegoFix PG easily justifies itself, but I don't think every Speedio owner needs to run out and sell a kidney to switch to it.
 
I help set up a lot of new Speedio users, so this is a topic I give a lot of consideration to. This is getting especially more complicated as we move into a 5 axis world, where reach and nose diameter become more important than they have before. Just to put some data on it - I've been with Yamazen for about 18 months, and I've sold more 5 axis Speedios than 3/4 axis ones. The new M and U series are seriously popular.

Baseline; I think everyone should have a 3/8" sidelock rougher holder. Even in a 5 axis world, you're mostly doing your primary roughing from A90. Currently, I like the Lyndex model with peripheral coolant holes. It doesn't have the super short gauge length of Mari, but I gave up on chasing MRR a while ago and having perfect coolant application is a bigger deal for process reliability than a minimal gain in stick-out length.

Besides a couple of drill chucks and face mill holders, I break it down into a sort of Good/Better/Best:

Good- Quality ER holders from Maritool or NT. The NT ones are super nice, and Yamazen will beat Maritool on the pricing. More important than the brand though, is that you set up to assemble them properly - you do need a torque wrench (with adaptor), and I would get a cheap ultrasonic cleaner, as well as add Kimwipes and acetone to your tool assembly routine. I tend to do everything in ER16, with a handful of ER32.'

ER is actually OK. It really falls flat on it's face in big shop environments where operator quality is marginal. ER performs quite well if assembled properly and cared for - and that is where it (and any other collet system) really goes to shit. If I was starting out, I would get going with ER, knowing that those holders will become my backup, drill, tap, etc holders as I climb the exotic tool holding ladder.

Better- Shrink. Shrink fit is the definitive bang per buck holder solution out there. If you are just getting started, the handheld induction units work just fine, and if you can't figure out how to rig up a little air blast station to cool them, you probably shouldn't be buying a Speedio. These are so simple to make, I wouldn't get too fussy about brands - everyone is making a pretty decent shrink fit holder these days. There is a bit of a dead spot in the market for Big+ in long reach as is necessary for the U and M machines, but I think the vendors are going to be stepping in to address that here in good time.

Yes, you do have the investment in the shrinker unit that you'll need to make as your shop expands, and they can get a bit absurd on the price. Having said that, they work pretty well with inexperienced operators with just a bit of training, and (unlike collets) there is little that can go wrong.

Best- RegoFix PG. The only downside to the RegoFix PG system is the cost. Across every other metric, it is the head and shoulders leader in grip (usually about 2x everything else), rigidity, dampening, ease-of-use, coolant through options (the CF collets are really expensive, but incredible).

Let me put a number on it - a very nice ER32 collet on a half-inch end mill, when properly assembled (bone dry, torqued properly), has a twist torque of about 100ft_lb. Shrink is about 130 (very dependent on nose diameter), hydraulics about 90, really high precision/on size collet systems like Big Mega Baby and SK are at about 150. If the shank or collet of those systems have any oil on them at assembly, reduce the twist torque by about 20%.

RegoFix PG15? Twists the shank of the tool with 225ft_lb. Even if I lose 20% due to sloppy assembly, I'm still significantly higher than any other system in existence.

My personal view is that a mix of ER and Shrink is where 90% of shops would be happy with price/performance. Very high revenue work where surface finish, cycle time, and process reliability are critical? RegoFix PG easily justifies itself, but I don't think every Speedio owner needs to run out and sell a kidney to switch to it.

Does the PG system not have the same issues with collet cleanliness that ER has? Couldn't tiny chips get around the collet for PG as well?
 
Does the PG system not have the same issues with collet cleanliness that ER has? Couldn't tiny chips get around the collet for PG as well?

They can, but two things:

1- The pre-press fit in the assembly is so close, most debris on either the tool shank or collet (interior and exterior) will get wiped past the critical contact zone during hand fitting. Micron-scale debris could remain, but will have a minimal impact.
A similar benefit is had by shrink fit and hydraulic holders.

2- The grip force of the PG system is so high, oil/lubricant on the critical contact areas will only degrade PG's performance to be 110% the next best option. This is where it beats up shrink and hydraulics when it comes to assembly.

I've only been in one shop where I've observed an operator deploy KimWipes and acetone to clean all the critical parts of a tool during assembly, and the manner they did so made it obvious this was their regular method. By contrast - you don't need to get out much to see all kinds of gorilla action happening to holders in most shops (like the guy who was frustrated with a Mega Baby collet, so whipped out some pliers and reefed on it till it snapped out of the nut - then put it all back together).

As such, a lot of my opinion on what makes a good tool holding system is indexed on what systems are most tolerant of operator fuckery. Traditional collets (ER, SK, Big, etc) - with their opens slots that trap all sorts of debris, careful assembly requirements, and difficult in keeping clean get trounced in my book by almost any other tool holding option.
 
A while back I measured how much the stubby Maritool sidelocks distort the flange out of round when torqued properly. I can't find my measurements but the bigger the tool the worse it is. I think 1/2" was a few tenths at the top of the flange and the 3/4" was around .0007" with the proper torque for the screw used, which is the same as their 3/8" sidelocks.
 
They can, but two things:

1- The pre-press fit in the assembly is so close, most debris on either the tool shank or collet (interior and exterior) will get wiped past the critical contact zone during hand fitting. Micron-scale debris could remain, but will have a minimal impact.
A similar benefit is had by shrink fit and hydraulic holders.

2- The grip force of the PG system is so high, oil/lubricant on the critical contact areas will only degrade PG's performance to be 110% the next best option. This is where it beats up shrink and hydraulics when it comes to assembly.

I've only been in one shop where I've observed an operator deploy KimWipes and acetone to clean all the critical parts of a tool during assembly, and the manner they did so made it obvious this was their regular method. By contrast - you don't need to get out much to see all kinds of gorilla action happening to holders in most shops (like the guy who was frustrated with a Mega Baby collet, so whipped out some pliers and reefed on it till it snapped out of the nut - then put it all back together).

As such, a lot of my opinion on what makes a good tool holding system is indexed on what systems are most tolerant of operator fuckery. Traditional collets (ER, SK, Big, etc) - with their opens slots that trap all sorts of debris, careful assembly requirements, and difficult in keeping clean get trounced in my book by almost any other tool holding option.
Thanks for the explanation. I will have to look into the PG system some more when I have a need. I agree about the operator issues with collet systems.
 
A while back I measured how much the stubby Maritool sidelocks distort the flange out of round when torqued properly. I can't find my measurements but the bigger the tool the worse it is. I think 1/2" was a few tenths at the top of the flange and the 3/4" was around .0007" with the proper torque for the screw used, which is the same as their 3/8" sidelocks.
We're talking about the ones where the tool is basically projecting out of the flange, and there is absolutely no projection?

Out of curiosity, have you measured a side lock holder with more of a projection? Where the set screw isn't in the flange?

This is an interesting data-point.
 
We're talking about the ones where the tool is basically projecting out of the flange, and there is absolutely no projection?

Out of curiosity, have you measured a side lock holder with more of a projection? Where the set screw isn't in the flange?

This is an interesting data-point.
Yes, yes, and if the setscrew isn't in the flange there is no distortion. Keep in mind that I am measuring the flange as close to the taper as I can but not the taper.
 
Never in all my years have I used a torque wrench for collets.
Does the correct amount of torque affect the runout of the end mill?

Over-torquing most collet systems begins to produce taper deformation the way it does on any other taper connection. How big that effect is depends entirely on the system and a bunch of other factors, but there is an upper-bound of torque.

Too little torque on the nut and you are obviously giving up clamping force.
 








 
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