What's new
What's new

Taps Breaking in Speedio WTF?

MattiJ

Titanium
Joined
May 31, 2017
Thanks, Bob. When I take a step back I think of the history of the parts we've made in the past I think it HAS to be the taps. I look at them and the rake and relief seem okay to me but I'm probably giving my eyes too much credit...I imagine a degree here or there can make the difference. I've got some coming in from Widia so we'll see!

Judging the tap geometry by eye is not easy task. One tap looks OK but binds like hell and another one is visibly worn but works still ok.
(I'm the leading expert of chinese qc reject taps sold for pennies on ebay)

Tapping couple of holes by hand (or cordless drill or whatever lets you sense the torque) might tell you more than 20 broken taps on cnc.
Like is the needed torque reasonable, is there something binding or is it making cracking noises as cutting edge is chipping away. And if the tap breaks way too easily.
 

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
West Unity, Ohio
That is the answer. Why would you use it. It is not as accurate and adds nothing. If you want to use one of the very expensive side floating tap holders from Yukiwa where it helps to find the center of a cast hole, that is one thing but the floating up and down is just adding slop.

But it would in no way hurt the machine - correct?

The only reason that I can think that a MTB would say "not" to use something is b/c it would hurt the machine, and otherwise leave the tooling choices up to us as situations are not all the same and rules are made to be broken.


???


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 

Vancbiker

Diamond
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Location
Vancouver, WA. USA
That is the answer. Why would you use it. It is not as accurate and adds nothing. If you want to use one of the very expensive side floating tap holders from Yukiwa where it helps to find the center of a cast hole, that is one thing but the floating up and down is just adding slop.

I'd have to agree with this ^.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that in the early days of rigid tapping we would always switch to a floating holder when having tapping troubles. Pretty quickly let us know if we were facing an issue with the machine or otherwise. Those days are the better part of 30 years behind us for most controllers and Brother has had rigid tapping for even longer. If the OP was having these problems on some machine from a small time builder, trying a floating holder would be a good idea. Since the OP has had no issues with other tapping ops it's very unlikely that he has a machine problem.
 

2outof3

Titanium
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Location
West Coast USA
But it would in no way hurt the machine - correct?

The only reason that I can think that a MTB would say "not" to use something is b/c it would hurt the machine, and otherwise leave the tooling choices up to us as situations are not all the same and rules are made to be broken.


???


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I have never figured out how to stop customers from doing things with machines that they think is best even when they are adding to the problem. I go back to my why would you.
 

BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
Can we all give this a rest until he gets some good taps in? The brother will fly through these when he has a good tap. Nerdlinger, do you have any machine time available on your R2A pallet changer? It would be great for this app..
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
Back when this problem started I dug through the preverbal "bucket of carbide" (even though these taps aren't carbide) and found nothing but then today I found a SECOND BUCKET OF CARBIDE! A few bandaids later I found an old one of these taps. Despite being already battle-worn I just HAD to know...I put it in and made 50 parts. :willy_nilly: Who knows how much longer I could have gone but I have not made any more than 30 with any of the brand new taps since this problem started and the used one likely has around 1,000 holes on it already.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to warm up my vocal chords and make a phone call.

I'll report back on this once it is completely resolved. Thank you ALL for participating in this! :bowdown:
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
After trying everything under the sun we started stoning the cutting edge on the leading threads of new taps(even though they are supposedly "pre-honed" or whatever) and the problem has "poof" gone away. You can feel the sharp/burr break away after a few strokes so it really is there. We have been getting thousands of holes per tap for about one year now (since we started stoning them ourselves.)

Thus, God-willing, concluding this era in my life. Again, thank you to everyone who participated in this boondoggle.

Poof.jpg
 

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
West Unity, Ohio
A year! ???
It's been THAT long since this thread was up? :eek:

I wonder if higher SFM is playing a roll in the prefered sharpness of the tool?


-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 

EndlessWaltz

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 18, 2016
Location
Midwest
For heaven's sake

I once had to call some engineers at a well established factory that makes name brand quality taps. Without admitting anything , they took on a manufacturing there of a tap that had been made in Japan or Germany. While the change over happened, the threads never "hit the hone" to take that edge off.

Supposedly a memo went out and I only found out through an applications engineer for a distributor I don't even deal with and he was pissed in a way that I had to call him to find out.

I did all this because I figured this was the problem and had basically proven it by doing what you had done, I hit a brand new tap with a stone and it worked. Same material , and a used tap of same brand worked fine, all same speeds and feeds. All the new taps would break until I stone that one. It sucks you had to go through all that,
 

Bob E

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Location
Middletown, PA
I don't have a pony in this show... but are you using the same tap maker or a new one?
BTW, I have fixed many tooling issues with India and Arkansas stones and a microscope.
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
A year! ???
It's been THAT long since this thread was up? :eek:

I wonder if higher SFM is playing a roll in the prefered sharpness of the tool?

-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I tried several various higher and lower RPM's to no avail. But then again I am often wrong. The idea behind breaking in the sharp cutting edge came from the log of tool life we started keeping....it became pretty clear that if they broke it was between 1 and, say, 50 holes.....rarely between 100 and 1,000...so, assuming mfg consistency in the taps, it seemed like if the edge got broken in it would last.
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
I don't have a pony in this show... but are you using the same tap maker or a new one?
BTW, I have fixed many tooling issues with India and Arkansas stones and a microscope.

We tried various suppliers during this whole ordeal but wound up sticking with the original supplier...Regal Cutting Tools. Even though we ultimately figured out the problem on our own they were responsive while working through this, sending new samples in a day or two, etc.
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
Are you stoning the cutting edge sharp or putting a 45-degree bevel on it? If a bevel how big?

Microscopes will open a whole new world of tool inspection, that can't be overstated. And a USB eyepiece camera is well worth the $$.
 

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
West Unity, Ohio
Are you stoning the cutting edge sharp or putting a 45-degree bevel on it? If a bevel how big?

Microscopes will open a whole new world of tool inspection, that can't be overstated. And a USB eyepiece camera is well worth the $$.


I guess I too question how you "stone" a tap?

If I was to attempt to dull down the entry ona tap - my "go to" method would be a wire wheel.

???


------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
We've been running a conical stone in the "V" created by the gash of the spiral point and flutes. It just breaks the sharp edge down a bit:

Tap.jpg copy.jpg
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
It's a shame your doing the edge treatment after coating. TBH I would never have thought of dulling a sharp edge on steel tools. Perhaps too much hook on these taps?
 








 
Top