Target Tool and Machine, my shop story

[macgyver]

First, Congratulations Wes, I have been hitched for almost 5 yrs now and I couldn't ask for a better wife. When we got married I had a very good job with very nice benefits and 3 months later they closed up and I lost my job, what a way to start off a new marriage. We decided to start my business then and have been in the same boat as you and Bill, trying to build up to the point where I am not constantly buying tooling or rebuilding machinery and tooling or remodeling the building or moving things so I can get to what I need that day.

Anyway, as to Jashleys question, I am in a bit of a different niche of the industry and I will get either a good percentage down with the PO or the very least they buy the material or I most likely don't do the job. It hasn't been a problem for me honestly, my customers know upfront that I expect them to do that. I know that doesn't fly in the 'normal' machine shop world, but it works for me. Most of the stuff I do doesn't have much if any local competition and I am not really doing anything that I know of that my customer will go online or across the country to get.

 

[Matt_Maguire]

There are automatic bore welding machines. I want to build one next. (1) I don't know if they can go to this small of a diameter. The finished size was only 1.7. (2) If I had a bore welder, I would bore first, then weld, then bore again. That would be the ideal way to do it.

(3) Some folks seem to prefer to press in a sleeve instead of welding. To me, that seems like more work. Now you would have to bore to size, plus machine the sleeve to size on the OD and ID. Also, you have need to have a lot of meat around the bore to avoid making it weak. There was not much meat on these bores.


(4) I used round holes for the cutting tools. Most I have seen are broached square for square bits. That seems like a waste of time to me. With a tight reamed fit and a flat on the cutting tool, you couldn't beat that bit out.

I like the bar too Wes! It's just more game in the toolbox + the building learn is now stuck in your head for future reference. Oh and congrats on the recent jail sentence…

1. My bore repair 308 can weld down to .75”, vid here of 1 5/8” bore → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRyAwgdwWjY

2. I don't like the bore – weld – bore again routine, just weld with good recipe and bore it.

3. That comes from the bore opening up as things settle & get worked (bad weld recipe, the filler choice is the least part of this). When you weld – the bore shrinks & is under considerable restraint – sooner or later the larger mass will win this tug-O-war and pull the “shrunk” area under tension back to the larger mass. (This is why the practice of “heat shrinking” an oversized machined bore to get by inspection can get you in trouble BTW, it doesn't stay shrunk)
So some like to bush, problem there is you have to at least match the parent strength with the bushing material… Not too many hackers out there who bust off a brinell and then get the right material to make things happy.

4. Round is fine - look for TRA, TRC, TRE & TRG for brazed carbide if you want it, here's one place -> Boring Tools - ACT

More bore welding joy →

Congrats again!
Matt

 

[wheelieking71]

Do you actually use your cash to up-start a production job like this? Particularly one with lots of $$$ in materials and tooling to get going? Or do you have a revolving line of credit used to get these jobs going, and pay it down once the customer pays?

And perhaps a more open question to the other owners - do y'all ever require a percentage of payment with the P.O. to cover up-start costs on the job, specifically for materials and tooling?

Best wishes on the marriage today by the way. I hope most everything went well for you, (and that you can laugh at all that didn't go according to plan.) But most important - God Bless on your marriage. Lord know's you'll need it.

Personally, I use an AMMEX card for 99% of all material purchases. The only time I pay a different way is if I run to the supply-house, and buy rems.
I usually pay for those with debit card at the counter. Tooling same thing, AMMEX card. Even ebay scores. I have the business paypal linked to the AMMEX.
I use it for everything.

Why?

Well, it really is no different than using your own money. American Express makes you pay the card off every 30days.
You can't carry a balance. You don't pay interest. And, if you spend as much as me, the points you earn more than cover the $150 yearly membership fee.
So, it is pretty much a convenience factor. And, yes, it is nice to have in a pinch.
When I had to put the MOCON board ($1750+labor) in one of my mills, it would have been down for a while had I not been able to flop the tally on a card.
At the time I was flat broke. I had no money, and a broken machine. But, I had a ton of work. AMMEX to the rescue!
It kind of sucked after busting out a bunch of work, to have the repair bill snatched right off the top. But, you do what you got to do to get through.
And, hope for a better month next month.

Don't know if that answered any aspects of your question, but that is how I do it.
I try not to put anything on any type of credit, or loan that charges me interest.
Once my machine leases are done, I am through giving money away!

If that means paying with greenbacks, I will be paying with greenbacks.

 

[Jashley73]

Bill, I guess my question would be - why use the AMMEX if you're going to be paying the balance anyway? Why not just use the debit-card/write a check tied to the company bank account? Is it just to earn the points? - Kudos to you for having the discipline to do so...

Having the credit card for when you're in a pinch? I totally get it - use it when you have to, and pay it down ASAP. I guess from my point of view though, if I weren't going to carry a balance (and who would @ 30% interest...) I would just pay out of checking, instead of tracking the balance on the AMMEX AND the checking account too...

I guess it's safe to say that you don't require % of payment with the customer's P.O?

Definitely not criticizing - just genuinely curious - and yes, thank you for sharing.

 

[ManualEd]

Bill, I guess my question would be - why use the AMMEX if you're going to be paying the balance anyway? Why not just use the debit-card/write a check tied to the company bank account? Is it just to earn the points? - Kudos to you for having the discipline to do so...

Having the credit card for when you're in a pinch? I totally get it - use it when you have to, and pay it down ASAP. I guess from my point of view though, if I weren't going to carry a balance (and who would @ 30% interest...) I would just pay out of checking, instead of tracking the balance on the AMMEX AND the checking account too...

I guess it's safe to say that you don't require % of payment with the customer's P.O?

Definitely not criticizing - just genuinely curious - and yes, thank you for sharing.

It gives you another 30 days for money to come in when you're short on cash. Takes money to make money, so you might as well use someone else's! (for a while).

It depends a lot on the customers. Joe Blow comes in off the street with a 50K order, that needs 10K of material?
You'd best be getting at least the money for material up front.

Dealing with bigger customers, a lot (maybe most?) of the time the bean counters aren't going to want to pay for anything before its been sitting on their floor for two months.

 

[ewlsey]

Had a little issue with a machining center so I thought I would make a video. I'm no professional camera man or commentator. But it's always fun to see "under the hood" of various machines.

Enjoy.

 

[ewlsey]

All fixed. My pocket book is a bit lighter, but maybe we learned something

 

[Ox]

Did you buy your parts directly from ZPS?

I didn't know that they built mills.

They build multi-spindle screw machines is all I knew.


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

 

[ewlsey]

Bought them from these guys http://www.zpsusa.com/

Not sure if we're thinking of the same ZPS. The ZPS in question built most of the iron Tree used on their CNC machines from the the little Journeyman series up to the big beast I have. They also built some of the Cadet mills sold by Okuma.

 

[Ox]

Oh - it's the same ZPS.

You should see their 78mm six or eight spindle full CNC screw machine!
An ingenious design - but a maint nightmare I'm afraid.
But then - pick your poison on CNC multi's. Continually wrapping and unwrapping wire looms (everyone else) or really elaborate mech drive distribution (ZPS).
Prolly just replace the wire looms every other year as basic maint routine?


So - who sold Tree?
Gosiger by chance?
I'm really stunned that it has "ZPS" anywhere on the machine at all!


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

 

[ewlsey]

This machine is a 93. That was near the end of the line for Tree as far as I know. I've never seen any much newer than 95.

From what the ZPS guys tell me, the machines were sold in Europe under the ZPS name as high end die/mold machines. Tree bought the iron and cheaped out on things like way covers, chip conveyors, tool changer, etc to sell them as mid range machines in the US market.

From working on it, I think that exactly right. The iron on this machine is rock solid and as good as anything Japan was making at the time. The ball screws are huge and tensioned. It's all box ways. The Yaskawa electrical stuff is also bullet proof though more than a little clunky compared to the Dynapath or Acramatic control options that were much more common (though I think they also used Yaskawa motors).

But, the way cover design is awful. We completely rebuilt them when I got it and they still aren't very good. The chip evacuation is a joke. Copious shoveling is required, the auger does pretty much nothing. The tool changer is quick for an umbrella, but most machines from Asia have a side mount when you get to this size. I've heard that a lot of machines had wiring problems due to the bad way covers, poor placement, and poor quality cat track. I have not had any issue yet but I know that smaller machines did.

Overall I like it. It's certainly a beast. And you'd laugh if you knew what I paid for it

 

[Ox]

Stop by their booth in Zeptember and check out their multi's!


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

 

[ewlsey]

I will.

I'm not sure but I think Hartwigg sold Tree in my area. I had a Journeyman that was retrofitted by a service guy that I know worked for Hartwigg.

 

[m98custom1212]

This machine is a 93. That was near the end of the line for Tree as far as I know. I've never seen any much newer than 95.

From what the ZPS guys tell me, the machines were sold in Europe under the ZPS name as high end die/mold machines. Tree bought the iron and cheaped out on things like way covers, chip conveyors, tool changer, etc to sell them as mid range machines in the US market.

From working on it, I think that exactly right. The iron on this machine is rock solid and as good as anything Japan was making at the time. The ball screws are huge and tensioned. It's all box ways. The Yaskawa electrical stuff is also bullet proof though more than a little clunky compared to the Dynapath or Acramatic control options that were much more common (though I think they also used Yaskawa motors).

But, the way cover design is awful. We completely rebuilt them when I got it and they still aren't very good. The chip evacuation is a joke. Copious shoveling is required, the auger does pretty much nothing. The tool changer is quick for an umbrella, but most machines from Asia have a side mount when you get to this size. I've heard that a lot of machines had wiring problems due to the bad way covers, poor placement, and poor quality cat track. I have not had any issue yet but I know that smaller machines did.

Overall I like it. It's certainly a beast. And you'd laugh if you knew what I paid for it

Overall are worth the cheap price they're are going for? How are the electronics it's so tempting to grab one up and risk it.

 

[ewlsey]

I think they are a good bet. I don't have much experience with other models. I know the way covers are universally bad. The dynapath control was popular on these machines but not very popular anywhere else so it might be hard to get help. I think they all had Yaskawa motors and drives. You can't do much better than that.

I'd buy another one.

 

[Ox]

Dynapath's are great controls to run.

Service should be very good yet - last I knew.

I would steer clear of a "System 10" tho. (mid 80's) Too old skewl. All the old type boards.
We had plenty of trouble with those on our machine - and that was 20 yrs ago.
You want to get into the "Delta" series.



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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

 

[ewlsey]

The Delta 10 and Delta 20 were pretty good controls considering they came out in around 86. They are basically the same except the 20 can drip feed. They were not fast enough to do high speed work or 3D machining, but nothing from that time period was.

The Delta 40 and Delta 50 were much better. They had more support for EIA g-code and a lot more processing power.

 

[m98custom1212]

The Delta 10 and Delta 20 were pretty good controls considering they came out in around 86. They are basically the same except the 20 can drip feed. They were not fast enough to do high speed work or 3D machining, but nothing from that time period was.

The Delta 40 and Delta 50 were much better. They had more support for EIA g-code and a lot more processing power.

What about this control "Yasnac MX-3" and this one "Dynapath 50M"

 

[ewlsey]

What about this control "Yasnac MX-3"?

That's what I have. It's fine. It has pitiful memory and it a little limited on processing speed but it's pretty solid. It's clunky but it works. It's about the same as a Fanuc or Mitsubishi of the same era.

Many had the A2100 control. I have no experience with those but they have PC related issues, mostly in the hard drives I think.

 

[Ox]

Is there such a thing as a "Delta" 10?
I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

"20" is the first "Delta" that I have ever heard of.

I updated our System 10 to a Delta 40 around '96.



If a machine - other than a Cinci - has a 2100 control on it - it's a lot newer than '93, that's for sure...


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!