Texturing Brass Bars on a Swiss Lathe

[Ox]

Along the lines of what I had typed for my first reply, but then backed out b/c it was not per the Swiss theme asked, but:


You mentioned rolling threads on a Swiss.
In what regards are you rolling threads on a Swiss?
You must mean a Fette head?
That's purty bulky up in there, but ...
I don't know that I've heard of that done very often...

However, the pattern in G1 could possibly be done in a Fette head, since it appears to me that a spiraling effect would not be a problem? I just don't see a rolling die (in "S") ever tracking good enough to be used in G2 or G3. But for use on G1 - maybe. You would need someone like Sossner to make the rolls, not Fette.

I would think that having the pattern split up between 3 different rolls (like a LH and RH knurl) it could possibly be dooable. BUT, I would NOT recommend planning on it running on a common bar size. I think that you would want to plan on peeling the bar down a smidge as you feed out, to get it to track in a LH, RH, or possibly straight pattern.

You would need a wide tool surface to handle high feedrate w/o leaving big swirlies in the bar surface. So - likely a HSS stick tool with a slight feed in and out rad. Then feed through the Fette that would be mounted in your sub-spindle so that your bar feeds right out the back of the machine.

You would want to stop the sindle and pull the Sub back enough to pop open the head for removal porpoises. Manually pull the bar out the back and manually reset the head.



Now, for the likes of G2 and G3, I envision a motorized bar marker with 3 or 4 concave stencile dies that you just pass the bar through. Again - this would likely be a Sossner tool. I have no clue if the machine is real or just in my imagination. They doo make single roll bar marker machines for imparting company logo, or whatnot all along the bar before it is made into parts. But what I envision here would be a much more involved machine than that.


G4 looks like a lazer deal.


H1 looks like you just need to toss it in the cement mixer with a few others.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[DDoug]

I know it’s hard to believe people might agree with someone on the Internet...
stuff and things

No problem wanker....I find the ignore list quite handy.

 

[2outof3]

Mill with a fourth axis and tailstock/side support.

Faster and cheaper.

 

[Ox]

Mill with a fourth axis and tailstock/side support.

Faster and cheaper.

Agreed, but his Q revolved around using the Swiss.

The 4th is how I used to mill fancy designs into "Bull" barrels for AR's.
Need to put a support in the middle tho.
I have done them in the lathe tho too....


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[2outof3]

Agreed, but his Q revolved around using the Swiss.

The 4th is how I used to mill fancy designs into "Bull" barrels for AR's.
Need to put a support in the middle tho.
I have done them in the lathe tho too....


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Being solid, I think there would be no need for a middle support. Cuts are light enough. But that is my opinion.

 

[Bendak]

You can buy a Citizen L220 with a Laser on the B Axis that could do it, and run 12ft bars. If you've got the cash, that is.

Do you know of an attachment that could specifically do laser texturing?

 

[Ox]

That is a turn-key pkg deal from Citizen.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Booze Daily]

Instead of trying to copy other textures, why don't you come up with some new textures you CAN do on a swiss?

 

[Bendak]

Instead of trying to copy other textures, why don't you come up with some new textures you CAN do on a swiss?

Good point. We are not set on these textures per say, instead our main focus is finding the most versatile manufacturing method (preferably with machines we have now) that could produce decorative textured bars at the fastest possible rate. Milling these with an end mill would simply take too long and tie up our machining time. It seems that the two options we are left with is either getting custom rollers, a Dorian or Zeus knurling head with custom knurls, or investing into a laser texturing machine.

 

[mhajicek]

Yeah, to me this is kind of like asking how to remove a screw with a hammer. The Swiss is not the right tool for the job. It can be done, but it will be slow, expensive, and probably not give you the results you're looking for. The examples you've shown were probably made on dedicated rod-texturing equipment, which may cost millions up front, but produce a finished part every second or two. Or, as I said before, they may be cast; die casting can run pretty quickly and efficiently.

 

[Booze Daily]

Good point. We are not set on these textures per say, instead our main focus is finding the most versatile manufacturing method (preferably with machines we have now) that could produce decorative textured bars at the fastest possible rate. Milling these with an end mill would simply take too long and tie up our machining time. It seems that the two options we are left with is either getting custom rollers, a Dorian or Zeus knurling head with custom knurls, or investing into a laser texturing machine.

Your avatar pic looks pretty fancy. What about using a concave or convex radius tool to do a thread-type design?

Feed fast back and forth like an oil groove?

You’re not trying hard enough.

 

[Ries]

This is not a lathe job. You are thinking about this from the wrong axis. Its a rolling machine job, and they make em just for this purpose.
like Memphis Jed suggests, I have done literally thousands of feet of round bar HOT with textures on a power hammer, with a two piece die set. Which works great for schedule 40 pipe, stainless and steel round bar, and, yes,will work on copper alloys too- but its not what you want for this job.
When you run round bar thru dies on the power hammer, you get nice deep textures, but you also must then straighten the round bars.
For what you are doing,you need one of these-

a roll texturing machine. standard dies are available to do some of the textures you want, custom dies can be made for a few hundred dollars a pair, a thousand bucks max, and the machine straightens the bar after it textures it. You can run round bar thru one of these all day long, 12' sticks go thru in about 30 seconds. No material is removed, it just cold textures the bar.
Hebo, the blue and white machines, are top drawer, made in Germany.

hebö Maschinenfabrik GmbH: Handrail embossing units

www.heboe.com

The chinese sell cheap ones, though they dont have dealers here, you have to order direct.

Or, you can order one from turkey- better than the chinese, I have some turkish fabricating machines, and the quality is quite good. https://www.cengizler.net/teklifiste/urundetay/desenli-hadde-kaliplari
These guys would no doubt make any patterns for you that you wanted.

 

[TeachMePlease]

Do you know of an attachment that could specifically do laser texturing?

I mean, if you're dead set on doing it in a Swiss, I'd say calling up MCC and finding your local distributor would be worth your time. I'm sure if you gave them a chance, they'd do their best to make a demonstration part for you, so they could sell you a machine or 5.
Give this video a watch:

 

[Ox]

Until I saw the vid, it never occured to me that they were running COOLANT in the lazer machines.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[TeachMePlease]

Until I saw the vid, it never occured to me that they were running COOLANT in the lazer machines.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

The barfeeder has its own coolant pump and pushes it through the pushrod and down the bar stock, assuming you run tubing.

I'm a big proponent of oil... But in this case....

 

[Ox]

Yeah, I saw the "Through Tube Coolant" as well.
I imagine that is to help keep the inside of the tube from getting nearly so splattered.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Bendak]

This is not a lathe job. You are thinking about this from the wrong axis. Its a rolling machine job, and they make em just for this purpose.
like Memphis Jed suggests, I have done literally thousands of feet of round bar HOT with textures on a power hammer, with a two piece die set. Which works great for schedule 40 pipe, stainless and steel round bar, and, yes,will work on copper alloys too- but its not what you want for this job.
When you run round bar thru dies on the power hammer, you get nice deep textures, but you also must then straighten the round bars.
For what you are doing,you need one of these-

a roll texturing machine. standard dies are available to do some of the textures you want, custom dies can be made for a few hundred dollars a pair, a thousand bucks max, and the machine straightens the bar after it textures it. You can run round bar thru one of these all day long, 12' sticks go thru in about 30 seconds. No material is removed, it just cold textures the bar.
Hebo, the blue and white machines, are top drawer, made in Germany.

hebö Maschinenfabrik GmbH: Handrail embossing units

www.heboe.com

The chinese sell cheap ones, though they dont have dealers here, you have to order direct.

Or, you can order one from turkey- better than the chinese, I have some turkish fabricating machines, and the quality is quite good. https://www.cengizler.net/teklifiste/urundetay/desenli-hadde-kaliplari
These guys would no doubt make any patterns for you that you wanted.

Thank you for this. This seems to be the best solution for us. I wonder how effective these types of machines would be for round stock, as that is the most common shape we use. I imagine multiple passes would be necessary for texturing around the full circumference; how would you match one side with the other?

 

[sfriedberg]

I wonder how effective these types of machines would be for round stock, as that is the most common shape we use. I imagine multiple passes would be necessary for texturing around the full circumference

Nah, the videos just happened to be featuring bar and square tube. You can get machines configured for dies for round bar, no problem. If it's a rotary swage-type machine, it probably uses a single sectional die station. If it's a roller-type machine, it might have two or three die stations with opposed rollers. It's not unusual for the die stations to be synchronized, so that nice patterns don't get messed up.

 

[Ries]

You should talk to Kevin Potter. While his main interest is jewelry and stamping dies, he just happened to buy something like 40,000 rolls for patterning wire (round bars) and flat bars from jewelery companies in Rhode Island. Depending on how old your original patterns are, he may even own the original dies that made them.
Regardless, he, and his son, Vincent, probably know more about decorative rolling of copper alloys and fine metals than anybody else on earth right now.
their focus has been on flat patterns for jewelry and bracelets, but they have a LOT of round rolls as well.
He posts here, but if I were you, I would call and try to talk to one of them on the phone. They know the tooling, the machines to do the rolling, and how they were made.
The earlier machines I referenced were larger machines made primarily for ferrous metals for the ornamental iron industry. Some of those machines would still work just fine for what you want, though, so both types of machines are suitable for your needs.