The Baffling Reaction to OWS

[stephen thomas]

I'm old enough to remember when the Republican party stood for core values like separation of church and state and non-interest in your private lifestyle choices, and were the activists in passing legislation for sound money and banking, civic construction & infrastructure programs, conservation issues and the EPA, Civil rights and the welfare acts, & good governance in general. They've since become the party of religious (certainly not Christian by ourlook or act) fanatics, porkbarrel politics and entitlements for the few who can afford the cash (lobbyists) and time to devote to narrow & narrow minded selfish interests.

Our best hope is for these kids to take on a cultrual revolution that the rest of us barely hanging on to the middle class are too scared, or too busy and tired to take care of for ourselves.

There was a sea-change in politics about 60 years ago. The USA was & had been in a similar basically corrupt, pre-empted situation with status quo back-scratching politics and political machines from small towns to big cities, to the national party level. Then the vets came back from WW2 with restricted option for jobs, a military experience in organizing and getting things done, fed up & impatient with the stupidity and graft of politics as usual & what they had seen in europe. They organized, got elected, and changed the face of civic involvment for a couple generations.

I don't really wish it on these kids, but the lack or opportunities combined with basic youthful idealism as well as the recognition of how their idealism was manipulated, used, and trashed in the recent wars in the middle east largely in the interests of corporatism and banking (with their fully bought politicians in both parties & the ownership of the mass market media) may hopefully give the kids the initiative and staying power to actually begin a swing back to the right. The old right, what is right in the world, and what is right for everyone.

smt

 

[lazlo]

That's exactly why I voted for Ross Perot. I figured he's bring the bring the Washington machine to a standstill and it would be an entertaining 4 years.

That's why I'd vote for Ron Paul. It'd be like giving a chimp an assault rifle -- he'd kill whatever random people and programs that he ran across. But since 90% of government is shit these days, even if he got the occasional innocent bystander (there are very few), he'd still be doing us a huge favor.

Like Pete says, I'd rather Newt win the nomination, at least the election would be interesting, with all the mudslinging and closet skeletons.

If Romney is elected, you won't be able to tell the difference from Obama.

 

[Miguels244]

If Romney is elected, you won't be able to tell the difference from Obama.

Funny story.
I get most of my news from the radio.
I didn't realize Obama was black for months.

Really CAN'T tell the difference.

 

[PeteM]

It was interesting to listen to Obama's State of the Union message and Mitch Daniel's response last night; both of which I though were a B+ or so.

Daniels is apparently a bit closer to the sort of rare Republican that Stephen Thomas remembers. It's interesting that a party now dominated by evangelical fundamentalists and corporate funding (and all of metlmunchr's current Republicans) chose him -- apparently in an appeal to independents and a contrast to their own slate of candidates. There was nothing about gay marriage, abortion, teaching "intelligent design," trashing unions, Obama as an America-hating commie, etc. The kind of issues that Republicans actually wanted to legislate upon when they made gains in 2010 weren't there -- just the idea that we need to strengthen private industry.

Instead, the actual steps that Obama and Daniels said they were for were remarkably similar. Part of that might be because Daniels had to prepare his talk before hearing Obama speak. Both wanted to cut unnecessary regulation, both wanted to open up energy sources, both wanted to save SS and Medicare, both wanted fair tax systems, both thought education was important, both wanted to support jobs, both were full of praise for the military, etc. Obama had more actionable proposals, but then the Republican side of the Congress is still planning to do whatever it takes to make him fail.

Differences? Obama painted a too-rosy picture of our strengths today. Daniels painted a too-dismal picture (we're almost Greece). Obama's "plan" was to make cuts, use half the money to pay down the debt, and half the money to make needed investments in infrastructure and education. Daniels was more just pay down the debts.

My own take is that this election we won't be voting so much for a leader as for the mobs and money behind them.

 

[Gewehr 98]

State of the Union

State of the Union registers at 8th grade reading level - POLITICO.com

My Way News - FACT CHECK: Obama pushes plans that flopped before

4 more years!

 

[lazlo]

My Way News - FACT CHECK: Obama pushes plans that flopped before

"There can be little more than wishful thinking behind his call to end oil industry subsidies - something he could not get through a Democratic Congress, much less today's divided Congress, much less in this election year."​

You have a better chance asking the Goldman and AIG executives to pay back the performance bonuses they took out of the bailout money than you do getting Congress to give up the billions/year in tax subsidies we give to the oil industry

 

[jCandlish]

Daniels painted a too-dismal picture (we're almost Greece).

The ongoing loss of $ hegemony in settling trades is dismal indeed.

 

[jCandlish]

You have a better chance asking the Goldman and AIG executives to pay back the performance bonuses they took out of the bailout money than you do getting Congress to give up the billions/year in tax subsidies we give to the oil industry

A little Fascism would solve both those problems. Ezra Pound wasn't so crazy.

 

[Cornilsn]

"There can be little more than wishful thinking behind his call to end oil industry subsidies - something he could not get through a Democratic Congress, much less today's divided Congress, much less in this election year."​

You have a better chance asking the Goldman and AIG executives to pay back the performance bonuses they took out of the bailout money than you do getting Congress to give up the billions/year in tax subsidies we give to the oil industry

What subsidies? Can anyone point at an actual act called the "oil companies subsidies act"? I know its consensus that they get these subsidies but nobody every can point to a specific one...

 

[PeteM]

What subsidies? Can anyone point at an actual act called the "oil companies subsidies act"? I know its consensus that they get these subsidies but nobody every can point to a specific one...

I'll give you about eight examples of subsidies and special tax breaks:

1-6 or so) This link provides about a half dozen examples, such as a tax credit each year for "intangible expenses" instead of depreciating these over time. Imagine if an individual machine shop owner could get an actual tax deduction for the time they spent doing things like prospecting for new business.

Oil: A Big Investment With Big Tax Breaks

7) Years ago a conservative think tank calculated that the price of a barrel of oil would double (e.g. from $100 to $200 in today's dollars) if the costs of defending foreign oil fields and keeping oil shipping lanes open was included. This is huge -- a billions to trillions scale subsidy. Imagine if our defense apparatus were at your beck and call to open up new markets, safeguard your goods, and even once and a while intimidate folks into favorable terms. The whole bit with being willing to go to war over the Strait of Hormuz is based mainly on keeping this waterway safe for oil tankers. Regardless if one thinks that's a good idea or not, it's a huge subsidy.

8) The public has unlimited liability for such things as the BP/Deepwater Horizon spill, while the oil company portion is capped.

In addition oil company execs often get insane compensation, not so much for wise investments, but playing around with capacity, gaming markets, and just lucking out when some global event causes prices to skyrocket. This compensation ultimately comes out of the pockets of shareholders and consumers.

So, there you go, specifics.

 

[Ries]

Subsidy is probably not exactly the correct word.

I would call them special interest tax deductions that other companies in other industries dont get.

Exxon Leads Defense of Oil Tax Breaks Democrats Want to Repeal - Bloomberg

Oil Companies Reap Billions From Subsidies - NYTimes.com

Fer Instance-
Oil Exploration is considered "manufacturing" under the tax code, and gets a deduction for that.
They are taxed at a 9% rate for some of this stuff, while actual manufacturers of metal objects get taxed at 25% for their real manufacturing.

Oil companies also get to deduct royalties they pay to foreign governments as if they were taxes, and thus, again, pay a lower rate of tax than other, actual manufacturing companies in the USA would pay for similar expenses.

In other words, they get special treatment under the tax code, while other american companies doing similar business, but not in oil, pay more.
This is directly because they paid lobbyists to get these special rules passed.

I am sure there are other examples, but thats two specific ones for you.

Oh, and a third one mentioned in the NY Times article- many oil companies are no longer US based, but they get special tax rates anyway, by doing these "inversion" things- something you or I could probably not do in our businesses.

 

[Miguels244]

Subsidy is probably not exactly the correct word.

I would call them special interest tax deductions that other companies in other industries dont get.

From a fiscal standpoint they are the same.

 

[Cornilsn]

I'll give you about eight examples of subsidies and special tax breaks:

1-6 or so) This link provides about a half dozen examples, such as a tax credit each year for "intangible expenses" instead of depreciating these over time. Imagine if an individual machine shop owner could get an actual tax deduction for the time they spent doing things like prospecting for new business.

Oil: A Big Investment With Big Tax Breaks

7) Years ago a conservative think tank calculated that the price of a barrel of oil would double (e.g. from $100 to $200 in today's dollars) if the costs of defending foreign oil fields and keeping oil shipping lanes open was included. This is huge -- a billions to trillions scale subsidy. Imagine if our defense apparatus were at your beck and call to open up new markets, safeguard your goods, and even once and a while intimidate folks into favorable terms. The whole bit with being willing to go to war over the Strait of Hormuz is based mainly on keeping this waterway safe for oil tankers. Regardless if one thinks that's a good idea or not, it's a huge subsidy.

8) The public has unlimited liability for such things as the BP/Deepwater Horizon spill, while the oil company portion is capped.

In addition oil company execs often get insane compensation, not so much for wise investments, but playing around with capacity, gaming markets, and just lucking out when some global event causes prices to skyrocket. This compensation ultimately comes out of the pockets of shareholders and consumers.

So, there you go, specifics.

Thanks for posting actual specifics. It leads to a more productive discussion.

Now, items 1-6 certainly sound like a huge giveback to the oil industry. But given the risk... I'm not sure it's out of line. And these 'intangibles' would amount to the consumable tooling you write off as a cost of doing business, from my understanding. It certainly is a unique tax situation, but oil is a unique commodity too.

7 seems more like a subsidy to everyone else, but your point is taken.

8. Agreed.

 

[Miguels244]

Don't forget the cost of 1.7 Carrier Air Groups in the Persian Gulf.

 

[jCandlish]

Whining about problems does not solve them. 7 billion people share the planet. Take care to also look out from below.

 

[jCandlish]

Below what?

Below the social class and privilege you enjoy. Most in the lower castes would prefer your position, and statistics dictates that many would be better suited to it.

 

[PeteM]

Which brings us full circle to the George Carlin video someone linked a day or two ago. The real purpose of the poor, according to Carlin:

George Carlin - Divide and Conquer - YouTube

 

[Miguels244]

Good luck.

United Republic | Democracy is not for sale

 

[PeteM]

Interesting site, Miguel. This caught my eye:

Keystone

According to the story Boehner was the political leader most in favor of the Keystone XL pipeline, bring all sorts of pressure to bear to see it approved. Meanwhile, Boehner got large poltical donations from interested parties AND personally invested in companies that would benefit from the pipeline.

Obama's address last night said we needed a law to prevent insider trader by members of Congress. Ya think? It's actually now legal and high profile leaders on both sides have done this.

 

[smalltime]

Interesting site, Miguel. This caught my eye:

Keystone

According to the story Boehner was the political leader most in favor of the Keystone XL pipeline, bring all sorts of pressure to bear to see it approved. Meanwhile, Boehner got large poltical donations from interested parties AND personally invested in companies that would benefit from the pipeline.

Obama's address last night said we needed a law to prevent insider trader by members of Congress. Ya think? It's actually now legal and high profile leaders on both sides have done this.

Not that I'm gonna be switching teams anytime soon, but this is the FIRST reason I wrote my conressman to NOT vote for Boner as speaker, IF we get the knod for 2012 in the house.( which is now in play, thanks to Mr. speaker)

He's good at one thing, painting himself into corners. He needs to go.

Although, it would be interesting to see the trades Mr. Obama, his wife and hid staff made in the last six years.

We'll find those papers right next to the transscripts for his college tenure.