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The Ethics of Automation

empower

Stainless
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
how can you tell someone's a bleeding heart democrat? dont worry, they'll make it painfully obvious... LOL
 

Tony Quiring

Titanium
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Location
Madera county california usa
Cost of doing the job...

Every task has actual value, based on skill set, need and supply of workers.

Taking orders at fast food or sweeping the parking lot are not $15.0 0 hr jobs.

Minimum wage regulations that suggest a living wage force these lie paying tasks to be paid far more than value.

Nobody lives on minimum wage, it was for entry level work.

Need more, learn more and get better skills.

To counter a machine is developed that removes the labor that is over paid and result is usually better outcome.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 

kustomizer

Titanium
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Location
North Fork Idaho
Cost of doing the job...

Every task has actual value, based on skill set, need and supply of workers.

Taking orders at fast food or sweeping the parking lot are not $15.0 0 hr jobs.

Minimum wage regulations that suggest a living wage force these lie paying tasks to be paid far more than value.

Nobody lives on minimum wage, it was for entry level work.

Need more, learn more and get better skills.

To counter a machine is developed that removes the labor that is over paid and result is usually better outcome.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Are you gonna run in 2024?
 

Orbital77

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 6, 2020
Cost of doing the job...

Every task has actual value, based on skill set, need and supply of workers.

Taking orders at fast food or sweeping the parking lot are not $15.0 0 hr jobs.

Minimum wage regulations that suggest a living wage force these lie paying tasks to be paid far more than value.

Nobody lives on minimum wage, it was for entry level work.

Need more, learn more and get better skills.

To counter a machine is developed that removes the labor that is over paid and result is usually better outcome.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

... and it could supplement the income of a family. This minimum wage discussion has been beaten to death here in Afreeka. As Lenin said, remuneration must be commensurable with the quantity, quality and importance of work. In practical terms I can pay $15/hour once a week or $6/hour every day of the week....

I am pretty sure most employers want to pay as well as possible.
 

CutEdge

Aluminum
Joined
May 22, 2015
Let's say you have a new automation project in mind. Your idea is to eliminate the assembly of a widget. You have a hard time finding good employees, so you have no intention of eliminating the widget-maker, who has consistently shown up on time every day for 10 years to make his widget, and he has a strong work ethic. Your intention is to move the widget maker to a different role. But this means he will have to train to make some other kind of widget, and, having little to no post-high-school education, he is not confident that he will be up to the task. Though he is aware of your intention to keep him employed, he is not confident that change will be good, and he thinks maybe you'll change your mind and fire him in a year or two if he can't learn the new task. So he continues making his widget diligently, but he has no intention of helping anyone figure out how to improve the widget-making process. His knowledge of this widget would be invaluable, and it would be good to have him helping the automation process, not bristling at it.

How do you convince the widget-maker to help the automation designers work him out of a job?
 

Scottl

Diamond
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Location
Eastern Massachusetts, USA
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life."

The problem in "teaching him to fish" is that he needs taught daily how to fish, keeps getting distracted with his smart phone and lets the fish run off with the bait, forgets to bring the pole and hooks to go fishing, if he shows up in the first place, however he still expects the fish prepared how he likes it on his dinner plate at meal time.

Any place that tolerates constant smart phone use on the shop floor is begging for trouble. Part of the bit about using automation to augment rather than replace humans must do their part and give an employer value for his pay. Some years back I worked in the engineering department of a manufacturer where cell phone use was banned on the factory floor except for breaks and lunchtime. There were of course those who whined about it but the work got done.

I have ZERO sympathy for those who expect to coast through life and IMO they should get the life they deserve.

"No, Jules. You've decided to be a bum. Just like those pieces of shit out there who beg for change, sleep in garbage bins and eat what I throw away. They got a name for that, Jules: it's called "a bum". And without a job, a residence or legal tender, that's exactly what you're going to be: a fucking bum."
Vincent Vega, Pulp Fiction
 

AJ H

Hot Rolled
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Let's say you have a new automation project in mind. Your idea is to eliminate the assembly of a widget. You have a hard time finding good employees, so you have no intention of eliminating the widget-maker, who has consistently shown up on time every day for 10 years to make his widget, and he has a strong work ethic. Your intention is to move the widget maker to a different role. But this means he will have to train to make some other kind of widget, and, having little to no post-high-school education, he is not confident that he will be up to the task. Though he is aware of your intention to keep him employed, he is not confident that change will be good, and he thinks maybe you'll change your mind and fire him in a year or two if he can't learn the new task. So he continues making his widget diligently, but he has no intention of helping anyone figure out how to improve the widget-making process. His knowledge of this widget would be invaluable, and it would be good to have him helping the automation process, not bristling at it.

How do you convince the widget-maker to help the automation designers work him out of a job?

If someone thought they were going to retire making one widget and over the course of a decade couldn't be bothered to read some books and watch some youtube videos to improve their manufacturing skillset I have no sympathy when they are out of a job.
 

CarbideBob

Diamond
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Location
Flushing/Flint, Michigan
Let's say you have a new automation project in mind. Your idea is to eliminate the assembly of a widget. You have a hard time finding good employees, so you have no intention of eliminating the widget-maker, who has consistently shown up on time every day for 10 years to make his widget, and he has a strong work ethic. Your intention is to move the widget maker to a different role. But this means he will have to train to make some other kind of widget, and, having little to no post-high-school education, he is not confident that he will be up to the task. Though he is aware of your intention to keep him employed, he is not confident that change will be good, and he thinks maybe you'll change your mind and fire him in a year or two if he can't learn the new task. So he continues making his widget diligently, but he has no intention of helping anyone figure out how to improve the widget-making process. His knowledge of this widget would be invaluable, and it would be good to have him helping the automation process, not bristling at it.

How do you convince the widget-maker to help the automation designers work him out of a job?

The automation designers have to have respect for the widget maker and show it.
The employee not confident in doing something new. Who builds that confidence?
When going from B-ports to CNCs I had quite a few that feared the jump and some that just fought it.
Is there a responsibility to take this on and try to get into his head?
Many are comfy with what they are good at and don't want it to change. Change is scary and unknown.
You are asking this guy to give up what is his day to day work that he is good at and can do and be proud or satisfied when the day done.
Machines, automation, computers are easy.
People are harder to figure out as you realize that nobody thinks like me and personalities come in a wide range of flavors and rewards.

Some may say that if your person does not do yuk-tube or put extra time study into books they are not trying or great.
This not my opinion in any flavor or circumstance and I just hate to see this kind of view.
Yes not much help but try, try to get inside this good employee's thinking and what will be rewarding to his/here life.
Bob
 

kustomizer

Titanium
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Location
North Fork Idaho
I had a young man once who liked to make 1/16 thick 5052 aluminum triangles, 4 on a sheet, 10 sheets at a time, a 3/8 hole in each corner.
flop 10 sheets on a fixture, put on an 1/8" thick cover sheet and a cross bar using 2 - 1/2" nuts to hold the whole mess in place, push the green button and the machine would drill the holes. remove the cover sheet and cross bar, place 1/16 coversheets and put a bolt in each corner, push the green button, countersink the burrs off the holes and put them in the tumbler for 15 mins. pull the parts out of the tumbler, rinse and put them on the drying rack. get back to the machine with a min or two before the machine stopped, repeat. He loved that and ran them for 15 years, 22 variations of the same type part. He would set them up and run them then go on to the next one and did a great job, sometimes he would run other jobs if the machine broke or material didn't show up in time. One day the jobs went away, I asked him to set up a simple job on another machine ( same VF2 ), he refused, said he wasn't qualified. I asked him to put in the soft jaws, he did, we had lunch, I asked him to load tools, offset file and program and that was the end of the day, time to cleanup. The next morning I asked him to proove out the setup, he did, then I saw him walking around in small circles in front of the machine talking to himself, I went over to see what was wrong, he was pissed I had tricked him into setting up what he called a 3D part when he wasn't qualified to do, I told him he had done a fine job using the very same skills he had been using for years on the other jobs. He told me I was wrong, never should have put him in that position and he quit right then and there.
 

Orange Vise

Stainless
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Location
California
Industrial automation is mature. That ship has sailed.

Automation is now about to spread to many other sectors: self driving vehicles, delivery drones, etc.

Many desk jobs will be eliminated with the proliferation of AI/ML: data entry, paralegal, etc. Additional full time jobs will be replaced with contracted work in the gig economy, made easy and practical by technology.

Ethical considerations are tricky. Will displaced blue collar workers give a crap when white collar jobs are eliminated? Is there any way to throttle the development of AI? And if there were, how would that affect the technological race against countries like China?
 

garyhlucas

Stainless
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Location
New Jersey
Today we had a company wide meeting. We have a $1 hour bonus for being there the whole 40 hrs each week. 30% of the employees don’t earn that extra $40 each week!
 

CarbideBob

Diamond
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Location
Flushing/Flint, Michigan
....... Is there any way to throttle the development of AI? And if there were, how would that affect the technological race against countries like China?
I like BigB's post 5 "He told me that we have competitors and if they automate and we don't, they will be eating our lunches."
For sure if you automated something and your best friend's wife is now out of a very well paying job you question your role.

There is no standing still or old days. If not moving forward someone else will.
Those settled in a job or way often do not like this idea. It upsets the apple cart, makes for stress.
Others want to run and try any wild thing seen and need to be herded into reality.
Bob
 

Straightedge

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Location
Germany/California
I like BigB's post 5 "He told me that we have competitors and if they automate and we don't, they will be eating our lunches."
For sure if you automated something and your best friend's wife is now out of a very well paying job you question your role.

There is no standing still or old days. If not moving forward someone else will.
Those settled in a job or way often do not like this idea. It upsets the apple cart, makes for stress.
Others want to run and try any wild thing seen and need to be herded into reality.
Bob

What this observation shows is how Jacques Ellul was absolutely correct in The Technological Society as regards technology being out of the hands of humans. It's developed by humans, but because of competition among people, businesses, and nations, it's not under human control. To not continue to develop tech is to concede defeat to one's competitors, both in business and militarily. Who wouldn't like for the rate of change to slow down? And yet, we have no choice.

And Kaczynski was correct that the further technology advances, the more human freedom and human dignity must retreat.

The bigger picture is that ai/automation/etc. are just links in the chains that will permanently enslave humanity. All the tech is connected, and ultimately it concentrates control into the hands of very few while leaving humanity as little more than cogs in the societal machine.

The best bet is to forget the rush on toilet paper and other nonsense and just stockpile a lifetime's supply of hard drugs while you still can.
 

CarbideBob

Diamond
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Location
Flushing/Flint, Michigan
.....
The bigger picture is that ai/automation/etc. are just links in the chains that will permanently enslave humanity. All the tech is connected, and ultimately it concentrates control into the hands of very few while leaving humanity as little more than cogs in the societal machine.

I so hope this not true and refuse to surrender to such thinking.
My glass is half full and that automation and AI will provide better lives for all.
Automation brought automobiles, microwaves, cheap Tvs, cell phones, oh and desk top computers to the consumer price level.
Without automation there would be no internet for the world.
Would a path of none of these things been better for all? Did only a elite few get the plus side?
Do you own a automobile? That alone speaks.
Who sort or started this automation thing way back and who made it big?
And then further back looms? Bad idea and a way to enslave the masses? Own a rug?

Our point of view is often distorted for many reasons.
Darn sure I take your points and do worry. Real workers and people, how can one not worry or care?
Bob
 

adammil1

Titanium
Joined
Mar 12, 2001
Location
New Haven, CT
Industrial automation is mature. That ship has sailed.

Automation is now about to spread to many other sectors: self driving vehicles, delivery drones, etc.

Many desk jobs will be eliminated with the proliferation of AI/ML: data entry, paralegal, etc. Additional full time jobs will be replaced with contracted work in the gig economy, made easy and practical by technology.

Ethical considerations are tricky. Will displaced blue collar workers give a crap when white collar jobs are eliminated? Is there any way to throttle the development of AI? And if there were, how would that affect the technological race against countries like China?
Self driving vehicles is the that scares me most about its impact on society. With industrial automation at least it lets us better compete with foreign labor and also provides in many cases opportunities for motivated employees to climb the ladder into more advanced skilled work. With self driving vehicles how many people are out there today who are earning a great middle class income driving a vehicle of some sort and what will they all do once that job is automated? I have to think the number of professional drivers numbers in the millions in this country. I suspect maybe even more people earn a living driving be it from UBER, to big rigs to locomotives than people number of people who are employed in manufacturing.


I wonder how many years out we still are from self driving vehicles going mainstream?

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Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Airstrip One, Oceania
The next morning I asked him to prove out the setup, he did, then I saw him walking around in small circles in front of the machine talking to himself, I went over to see what was wrong, he was pissed I had tricked him into setting up what he called a 3D part when he wasn't qualified to do
Sounds like what they call high-functioning autistic. Mental health problems are unfortunate :( Too bad you couldn't convince him triangles have three sides, which makes them 3d, he'd been qualified for years :)
 








 
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