The Lockheed strike

[Boris]

As Milacron would say "Time for locky poo"

Or just moving it to the forum next door where ppl discuss things to their hearts content

Boris

<<has worked in places where unions and bosses were both bunch of dips**ts

 

[paul39]

Or just moving it to the forum next door where ppl discuss things to their hearts content

Boris

<<has worked in places where unions and bosses were both bunch of dips**ts

I thought a couple pages ago this thread should be moved to Manufacturing in US & Europe

I worked 2 years in Aerospace - Northrop, salaried, 2 years in an advertising photo studio, and since 1967 self employed until retirement. Sole proprietor, partnership, corporation, sole proprietor. Northrop line workers in 1963 - 65 may have been unionized, but I didn't notice.

My dad worked all his life as a steelworker. He complained bitterly about the long strike in the 1950s, but that strike got the steelworkers health care and pension that covered him and my mother in their declining years. Dad lost one leg then the other due to diabetes. Mom kept falling and breaking an arm, a leg, then had a stroke and mercifully died within a week.

People who work in some slaughter houses and chicken processing plants are still exploited and abused. Some have no other place to work for one reason or another. A union would help them.

Neither unions or management are innocent.

Paul

 

[John Welden]

Well, In a utopia... people think ahead and save money, and didn't have a significant percent of thier income taken from them thier entire working lives, which they could have saved. So in a utopia, they compensate themselves. In the real world, social security. Make a few changes to it, quit borrowing against it, quit counting it as part of the general fund, and I really don't think it's the worst thing in the world. It's just been raped so many times over the last 60 years that it is going to collapse.

As for reverting to foul behavior... john's approach sure seems to steer things to the gutter, quick. I don't mind it... it's clear he's got passion for the issues, and that's not a bad thing. I just wish he didn't turn it to blind hate for differing opinions.

John:
First, adjust for inflation, and the purchasing power of the middle class has increased. Period. 1975ish, there was an inflection point where the middle class didn't increase thier purchasing power as fast as the upper class, but it still increased. So I reject your premise that the middle class has "got fucked." It should make zero difference to anyone who isn't a raving jealous mental midget that the upper class had bigger increases.
What happened in 1975 that might contribute to this trend? Globalization. No difference in the 1980's, during the reagan revolution. I'd contend that globalization is the real driver of a slower rate of increase in purchasing power for the middle class (in real dollars.) That said, globalization has HELPed standard of living. No longer do I haev to pay a ton of money for a shit GM car. I could spend the same, or less, money on a toyota and get a better car. bam. SoL improved. now toasters cost less, etc.

I'll take trickle down over trick up poverty any day.

Yeah, you've really got shit figured out. What right wing shit publication did you read that garbage in?

Don't worry, conservatives won and liberals lost. You guys are going to dominate politics for a long time to come. Congratulations, I'm sure you guys are really going to make things great. So much trickle down is coming my way, I can feel it! The huge wins for liberals in 08 was only a temporary glitch because you guys crashed the economy. Now that people forgot about that, you're good to go for more domination .

Please let me thank you for giving us another excellent presidential candidate. You guys really know how to pickem. I was worried you might pick a another phony fuck son of a rich dude.

 

[Ries]

<<"There is a whole region of the Basque"

The fucking Basque? What do they make? Berets?>>

Sorry, but this is just ignorant.
The Basque make MACHINE TOOLS.
They have for over a century. Really good ones, too. The Basque area has been a metalworking center for a couple of thousand years, and they make all kinds of machinery. manual lathes, milling machines, drill presses, grinders, boring machines, ironworkers, sheet metal equipment, and more.
I have owned a Basque made ironworker for over ten years now, and its better than any equivalent American made machine by far.

In the USA, we used to make Berets. Now, of course, we buy them from China.

 

[SRT Mike]

Name one conservative policy that's helped the middle class in the last 30 years.

Lower taxes.

Geee that's weird, the middle class got fucked while the ultra rich and big corps raked in mega wealth. I wonder how that happened! Couldn't have anything to do with conservative ideas... No sir.

You're too hung up on class envy. The pie is not a fixed size. If someone else has more, that doesn't mean you have less. Economics doesn't work that way, never has.

How's that trickle down thing working out for you? By tickle down they meant you get pissed on.

You'll have a hard time telling people they had it better in the 1950's than today. Larger houses, better food, better entertainment, more travel, more and nicer cars, more disposable income, more travel.

Taking from the wealthy and giving to the poor only means the poor will always be poor, and will just want more handouts. That's just human nature.

 

[SRT Mike]

Isn't that what we are doing? We are living in a Republican Economey. This IS the shit you guys wanted.

There are more regulations and costs being added than ever before. From personal experience, the requirement to 1099 for payments > $600 is a HUGE paperwork PITA. Never ending hiring rules - the just added rules to stop discrimination against the unemployed. You either understand that you can't browbeat, cajole and threaten business into bending to your will, or you don't. I can manufacture in China or Malaysia or anywhere else. Or I can hire Americans to do the work (as I do now). Whenever they raise costs - whether it's raising minimum wage, adding taxes, adding fees, or adding regulations, it makes it more expensive to do business here, and so companies go elsewhere. I know the knee-jerk response is "yeah so we should just have a bunch of people earning nothing, right?". Doesn't matter. Fact is, the more expensive, the less there will be. You can't change it unless you plan to isolate the USA and stop trading with everyone and isolate our internet and banking too. Of course, then the USA would be as prosperous as North Korea, but some would happily drive us there if it means sticking it to those who have more than they have!

State and local governments have cut back huge. Other than Obamas stimulus, he hasnt spent jack shit. (congress controls spending but that's another topic) Taxes as a percentage of GDP are the lowest they've been in decades. Rich people and corps are more powerful than ever. There's nine zillion loopholes in the tax code, so a lot of times they pay very low or nothing. (GE zero, Romney 14.8%)

Obama has spent HUGE. Beyond huge. We spend about $1,500 billion more than we take in tax revenues. The stimulus has been ineffective. Taking money (or even worse, charging it on the nation's credit card) and using it for "infrastructure" (aka busy work) is the worst idea in the world. The busy work doesn't create value, the job is temporary, and the bill gathers interest until it's paid off.

And this stuff about "the rich pay no taxes" is totally untrue. First off, capital gains is charged at a lower rate, as it should be. It's risk income, not salary. You need to promote risk income spending or it stops happening. If you look at capital gains revenue after Bush dropped the rate, it went up. And look up the tax rates from the Gov't and you will see the wealthiest pay the highest rate as a percentage, as well as a huge percentage of the overall tax burden.

As for taxes as a % of GDP... well, when GDP goes in the toilet and nobody is making any money, then yes, tax revenues fall. Raising taxes in that situation is like beating your wife because she is still upset about the last time you beat her. It just makes it worse. Tax revenues have historically averaged about 18.5% of GDP *regardless of the tax rate*. Thinking you can jack up the rates and get all sorts of new money flies in the face of logic and the realities of history. The way to increase revenues is to grow the GDP - and that means business friendly policies.

Where are the fuckin jobs? What exactly is the hold up? Seems like your stupid fuckin ideas don't work. Oh wait, we have to get rid of Medicare and SS, THAN the jobs will come big time!

If Romney wins, you will see the jobs come - just wait and see.

Between now and then - there is an avalanche of shit coming. Greece is very soon going to default and be booted out of the Euro. The Euro may not survive. Spain, Italy and Portugal may not be far behind Greece. At the very least, an EU break-up will have repercussions here. The dollar is rising and hurting exports. China is entering a recession. We are entering another recession. We need smart leadership. Business oriented leadership. Sure, we need to keep tabs on banks who are pissing away billions and then coming to the feds for a bailout, only to do the same thing again... but coming down on "the wealthy" and small business owners is not the answer.

Some important things you must understand...

1) You cannot tax your way to prosperity. Ever.

2) The pie is not fixed. Wealth is created, not passed around. If someone else earns more, it does not mean you earn less. Never has, never will. Trying to pass wealth around does not work

3) Taxes are deflationary. They are an impediment to business. Regulation is an impediment to business.

I know some of you guys get all worked up about the rich bankers who screwed you over... well, how many of them have gone to jail under this administration? What is Frank Raines doing now? What about Corzine? Don't kid yourself into thinking either party is on your side. I'm just no fan of Greece's method - which is what we are doing now. Super high taxes, tons of handouts, tons of regulations, tons of social programs, massive deficit spending. The result? A trashed economy. Don't think it can't happen here - it can and will, as soon as we run out of other people's money to spend. And $1,500 billions of other people's money per year is doing a fantastic job of wrecking the US economy!

 

[kuraki556]

1) You cannot tax your way to prosperity. Ever.

2) The pie is not fixed. Wealth is created, not passed around. If someone else earns more, it does not mean you earn less. Never has, never will. Trying to pass wealth around does not work

3) Taxes are deflationary. They are an impediment to business. Regulation is an impediment to business.

Since I can't "like" your post twice, I'll just emphasize this.

 

[Big B]

Yeah, you've really got shit figured out. What right wing shit publication did you read that garbage in?

Don't worry, conservatives won and liberals lost. You guys are going to dominate politics for a long time to come. Congratulations, I'm sure you guys are really going to make things great. So much trickle down is coming my way, I can feel it! The huge wins for liberals in 08 was only a temporary glitch because you guys crashed the economy. Now that people forgot about that, you're good to go for more domination .

Please let me thank you for giving us another excellent presidential candidate. You guys really know how to pickem. I was worried you might pick a another phony fuck son of a rich dude.

Well, at least Romney is a christian. Oh wait, maybe not so much. But at least he's not a muslim. And at least he's white. That should appeal to at least 99% of rethuglicans.

edit: He can even sing. What language is that anyway, some cult language?
YouTube

Big B

 

[John Welden]

There are more regulations and costs being added than ever before. From personal experience, the requirement to 1099 for payments > $600 is a HUGE paperwork PITA. Never ending hiring rules - the just added rules to stop discrimination against the unemployed. You either understand that you can't browbeat, cajole and threaten business into bending to your will, or you don't. I can manufacture in China or Malaysia or anywhere else. Or I can hire Americans to do the work (as I do now). Whenever they raise costs - whether it's raising minimum wage, adding taxes, adding fees, or adding regulations, it makes it more expensive to do business here, and so companies go elsewhere. I know the knee-jerk response is "yeah so we should just have a bunch of people earning nothing, right?". Doesn't matter. Fact is, the more expensive, the less there will be. You can't change it unless you plan to isolate the USA and stop trading with everyone and isolate our internet and banking too. Of course, then the USA would be as prosperous as North Korea, but some would happily drive us there if it means sticking it to those who have more than they have!

State and local governments have cut back huge. Other than Obamas stimulus, he hasnt spent jack shit. (congress controls spending but that's another topic) Taxes as a percentage of GDP are the lowest they've been in decades. Rich people and corps are more powerful than ever. There's nine zillion loopholes in the tax code, so a lot of times they pay very low or nothing. (GE zero, Romney 14.8%)

Obama has spent HUGE. Beyond huge. We spend about $1,500 billion more than we take in tax revenues. The stimulus has been ineffective. Taking money (or even worse, charging it on the nation's credit card) and using it for "infrastructure" (aka busy work) is the worst idea in the world. The busy work doesn't create value, the job is temporary, and the bill gathers interest until it's paid off.

And this stuff about "the rich pay no taxes" is totally untrue. First off, capital gains is charged at a lower rate, as it should be. It's risk income, not salary. You need to promote risk income spending or it stops happening. If you look at capital gains revenue after Bush dropped the rate, it went up. And look up the tax rates from the Gov't and you will see the wealthiest pay the highest rate as a percentage, as well as a huge percentage of the overall tax burden.

As for taxes as a % of GDP... well, when GDP goes in the toilet and nobody is making any money, then yes, tax revenues fall. Raising taxes in that situation is like beating your wife because she is still upset about the last time you beat her. It just makes it worse. Tax revenues have historically averaged about 18.5% of GDP *regardless of the tax rate*. Thinking you can jack up the rates and get all sorts of new money flies in the face of logic and the realities of history. The way to increase revenues is to grow the GDP - and that means business friendly policies.



If Romney wins, you will see the jobs come - just wait and see.

Between now and then - there is an avalanche of shit coming. Greece is very soon going to default and be booted out of the Euro. The Euro may not survive. Spain, Italy and Portugal may not be far behind Greece. At the very least, an EU break-up will have repercussions here. The dollar is rising and hurting exports. China is entering a recession. We are entering another recession. We need smart leadership. Business oriented leadership. Sure, we need to keep tabs on banks who are pissing away billions and then coming to the feds for a bailout, only to do the same thing again... but coming down on "the wealthy" and small business owners is not the answer.

Some important things you must understand...

1) You cannot tax your way to prosperity. Ever.

2) The pie is not fixed. Wealth is created, not passed around. If someone else earns more, it does not mean you earn less. Never has, never will. Trying to pass wealth around does not work

3) Taxes are deflationary. They are an impediment to business. Regulation is an impediment to business.

I know some of you guys get all worked up about the rich bankers who screwed you over... well, how many of them have gone to jail under this administration? What is Frank Raines doing now? What about Corzine? Don't kid yourself into thinking either party is on your side. I'm just no fan of Greece's method - which is what we are doing now. Super high taxes, tons of handouts, tons of regulations, tons of social programs, massive deficit spending. The result? A trashed economy. Don't think it can't happen here - it can and will, as soon as we run out of other people's money to spend. And $1,500 billions of other people's money per year is doing a fantastic job of wrecking the US economy!

You nailed it.

 

[Black Lab]

This thread is getting out of hand, to say the least.

We can bitch and moan all we want, nothing is going to change. We just have to pucker up and do the best we can. I've found that you cannot change the political mind of another person, they have to do that.

I will say one thing though, rich are getting richer off of the backs off the working man. Inflation is rising faster than the salary of the middle-class. How many times have you heard "If it wasnt for the wonderful employees of XYZ Co. we wouldnt be where we are today", "Our people are our best asset". Do the employees deserve a (larger) piece of the pie? I believe they do.

 

[Alloy Mcgraw]

Please let me thank you for giving us another excellent presidential candidate. You guys really know how to pickem.

That's laughable, as if "The people" choose the president.

 

[thruthefence]

"The Basque make MACHINE TOOLS."

I don't guess they made Bultaco Motorcycles? I had one as a young man, (a 250 Alpine Enduro) and everything on it was "grind to fit, paint to match".

 

[Nick]

<<"There is a whole region of the Basque"

The fucking Basque? What do they make? Berets?>>

Sorry, but this is just ignorant.
The Basque make MACHINE TOOLS.
They have for over a century. Really good ones, too. The Basque area has been a metalworking center for a couple of thousand years, and they make all kinds of machinery. manual lathes, milling machines, drill presses, grinders, boring machines, ironworkers, sheet metal equipment, and more.
I have owned a Basque made ironworker for over ten years now, and its better than any equivalent American made machine by far.

In the USA, we used to make Berets. Now, of course, we buy them from China.

I found your thread on Basque machine tools.
Hey, one of the machinists is wearing a Beret

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/basque-machinery-builders-229918/

 

[Limy Sami]

"The Basque make MACHINE TOOLS."

I don't guess they made Bultaco Motorcycles? I had one as a young man, (a 250 Alpine Enduro) and everything on it was "grind to fit, paint to match".

Sorry bud

Bultacos were built in Barcelona

According to my maps, Barcelona is on the Mediteranian coast of Spain and not the Basque country, (which is northern Spain on the Atlantic coast)

Bultacos were as rough as guts, but they worked frames cracked with monotonous regularity, reboring cylinders was terrible, more hard spots than a cathouse full of whores hearts.

I had a ride on a 250 Matador enduro, which was a right handful

 

[thruthefence]

Here's a Basque automobile. I want one.

No Shit!!! Really!!

Folding Electric Microcar Is Headed for Production : TreeHugger

 

[thruthefence]

IE, Bultacos; I'm ashamed to say that I bought the motorcycle as an exercise in dick-wagging. Bunch of the guys I ran with had Suzikis & Yamahas ( I sold my Yamaha 250 to buy the Bultaco ) and I wanted to one-up them. Bad business decision. I had a Penton 175 for awhile, and that was a jam-up dirt bike, way better then me.....and a Hodaka superrat 100, with a powerband like a light switch . on, or off.

 

[Limy Sami]

Most of my Bultaco dealings was with fixing the Sherpa trials bikes in the early 70's part of my apprenticeship was bronze welding copper pipework - never did all the hours spent learning an all but dead process pay such dividends.

Most of the moto X ers & enduros over here were European* the Japs hadn't moved in on the market.

I never could work out how Bultacos could tap a thread on one side of the hole and leave the other drill dia

Used Bultacos either made silly money or washers, IMo the Montesas were little better, and the Ossas a bit strange, never quite sounded ''right''


* The Maico was a superb machine but definitely for the ''pro'' I was fond of the CZs

 

[Alloy Mcgraw]

Here's a Basque automobile. I want one.

No Shit!!! Really!!

Folding Electric Microcar Is Headed for Production : TreeHugger

That looks like something Weldon would drive.

 

[SamH]

So much trickle down is coming my way, I can feel it!

John, this little pic will help you and everyone else understand how trickle down/horse and sparrow economics works

 

[Alloy Mcgraw]

John, this little pic will help you and everyone else understand how trickle down/horse and sparrow economics works

John must be very fond of trickle down then.....Because he knows all about being in the above position.