The US sanctions impacting the Chinese chip industry

[Milling man]

not that sure about that statement

You're right, I misremembered the news a bit. https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202209/1275240.shtml
China already knows how to make chips according to steep standards like 10nm, but their equipment is still at the level of tens of nanometers.

 

[Milling man]

On the negative side in China, their communist society is not supportive of the freedoms that allow unfettered individual intellectual growth, so that's in our favor.

As long as the Chinese do not get into politics, he is free to do almost anything - at least in science or production.
They don't have standards for the number of women/men/gays/blacks/young/old people in the company or in its management. If you are effective - well done.

 

[Richard King]

Yesterday the DOJ arrested 13 Chinese spies.

https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/justice-department-announces-13-arrests-in-chinese-espionage-cases-151382597971

 

[Scottl]

Yesterday the DOJ arrested 13 Chinese spies.

https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/justice-department-announces-13-arrests-in-chinese-espionage-cases-151382597971

And that is likely just the beginning. Although China has many smart scientists and engineers their technological "great leap forward" was largely done with information pirated from USA an EU firms by Chinese nationals living and working in those countries.

As we have seen here, most of the overseas Chinese are intensely proud of and loyal to China and while they may be fond of our lifestyle and economy the ties to the motherland are strong. Add in pressure from the PRC on relatives in China and economic rewards for technology transfer and there is strong incentive to "borrow" trade secrets from other countries. When I worked for defense contractors foreign nationals were not allowed access to secret level info and for sound reasons.

 

[jaguar36]

......and sport ,sport is the be all and end all.

I'm continually shocked at the amount of effort kids and parents put into sports. If we spent half as much time studying as practicing we'd be doing way better. The number of parents I work with who truly believe that their kid is going to make it pro would be enough to fill the NBA. In reality, sports don't matter once you become an adult. Nobody cares if your HS football team won the championship when you are 40. (insert Al Bundy reference here). Yet most kids these days seem to spend almost every hour not at school practicing. It used to be that sports had a season, with football/soccer in the fall, basketball/wrestling in the winter and baseball in the fall. Now they are year round and lots of kids will try to play two sports at the same time.

 

[standardparts]

Yesterday the DOJ arrested 13 Chinese spies.

Yeah, no doubt the DOJ has thier top men on it.
Guess they missed the member of Congress who was dating an alleged spy, or the U.S. Senator who, for 20 years, had the Chinese chauffer who allegedly reported to Chinese State Security.
Yeah, arrested some spys. It's election time and arresting spys in the headlines is likely better than reports of 9% inflation, high heating costs, or a way oil shortage.

It's all a big game.

 

[Richard King]

I am a conservative and know all of that standardparts. I added the news story as many people never read news anymore. I was just letting folks know.

 

[dcsipo]

Dee, I know this isn't the discussion you want to have in this thread, so do yourself and most of us a favor and not swallow, rather just spit out the bait!
I agree with you that the right is too fucking often using religion as the way to "gather the herd", but I also equally agree with scsmith42 that this woke bullshit has got to stop!
I don't impose my religious beliefs ( you wouldn't even know if I had any ) on my children or their friends, but I also won't tolerate any of them imposing their own "woke" garbage on me.
With that said, this discussion is interesting and relevant enough for manufacturing, so let's not invite partizan bullshit to take it over shall we?
We've made it almost a month or so without a thread getting closed, how'bout aiming for a new record shall we?

"Wokeism" is just a religion . Just like most of the "isms" are. Pushing LGBTQ views is not the same as being tolerant of them. Not sure any school has rules like you cannot attend unless you "turn gay." It would be similarly offensive as the "can't say gay bills." I agree if anyone is pushing views on me that are antithetical to mine or my children's (although all my are adults, 28 and 30), I will find that offensive. I draw the line somewhere; there is a difference between handing one the bible to read or preach the gospel.

You are right we need to keep this civil. Labels do not help anyone.

 

[Freedommachine]

Nothing is sacred; nothing is taboo. Nothing is off-limits.

Mmmkay... Well, you keep sterilizing and neutering your boys while teaching them 'love is love' and supporting whatever deviant, degenerate filth they can dream up.

I'll teach mine to hunt, fish, respect women (real ones with lady parts) and to fear the LORD.

We'll see who's bloodline is left to build microchips in the US 60 years from now .

There is a reason that the Chinese and Indian people do not support, condone or endorse moral relativism.

About a month ago My 12 year old niece told me that there are half a dozen kids in her grade that wear tails and ears everyday acting like dogs and cats...

Who is going to be more likely to attain a higher education and find a suitable mate to procreate with... The 12yo Chinese kid who's parents are always telling them to "wook haada"... or the 12 yo American kid who defecates in a litter box and licks him/her or there/they or zee/zerr selves?

Edit: had to add some extra pronouns to be extra inclusive.

 

[dcsipo]

You're right, I misremembered the news a bit. https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202209/1275240.shtml
China already knows how to make chips according to steep standards like 10nm, but their equipment is still at the level of tens of nanometers.

The Biden rules hit them hard with the restrictions on importing new equipment, software, or expertise. Also, the US is preventing China from developing its chip-making systems by denying the import of first and second-level chips. It is very much like making anything to a level of precision; you need to be able to measure up to 10 times the precision goal and move in increments at least five times the same. So to make chips of x scale, you need ten times that scale.

 

[scsmith42]

How are they "canceled"? Are they no longer allowed to spew crap on any of their favorite media outlets or social networks? Are you afraid that they will be ridiculed by the ivory tower of academia? You have not dealt with academia if you believe that. That world is brutal; it is not for snowflakes. You are exposed to relentless attacks, no collegiality, and only the strong survive. On the other hand, do you know who wants to force people into bathrooms where they do not feel comfortable? Ban books, Ban things that are not even taught in k-12? Let's set one thing straight, intolerance runs deep on both fringes, and if you only get your information from one source only, you are on a fringe. I am not intolerant of religious people as long as they keep the f out of my bedroom, life and pocketbook. They can believe in whatever unicorns and rainbow farts they want to believe in, but I do not have to accept it or give validity to it. I am not going to tell them they are wrong; if they have not figured it out, there is nothing that will enlighten them. In exchange, I expect the same level of respect from them for my worldviews. After all, who wants to convince a bunch of flat-earthers that the ISS is real?

Wow, it was not my intention to hit a nerve, and I think that you are misjudging where I’m coming from.

On a regular basis, I hear of thought provoking, intelligent conservative speakers presentations being cancelled on college campuses. Here are some examples. Condoleezza Rice - cancelled after being protested by Rutgers faculty. Ben Shapiro - refused by the University of Minnesota. Berkeley cancelled Ann Coulter and Milo Yiannopoulous. There is a long list of intolerance from the cancel culture. Antifa portends to be anti fascist, but engages in fascist behavior itself. The list goes on and on. Yet how often do you hear of a liberal speaker being cancelled? When I was in college we were presented with a plethora of liberal speakers, including socialists and communists. Lots of students went to listen to them, and then we had active discussion afterward regarding the pros and cons of their positions. But there is no active discussion allowed by the woke crowd.

If you’re fed the exact same food at every meal, your body is going to be missing out on some necessary nutrition. I posit that the same holds true for one’s mind.

 

[standardparts]

The Biden rules hit them hard with the restrictions on importing new equipment, software, or expertise. Also, the US is preventing China from developing its chip-making systems by denying the import of first and second-level chips. It is very much like making anything to a level of precision; you need to be able to measure up to 10 times the precision goal and move in increments at least five times the same. So to make chips of x scale, you need ten times that scale.

"The Biden rules"....
So is this intended to propel the U.S. as a world leader in chip production? Why now?
Seems making us a leader in production of many products and independent of foreign supply chains should have been an ongoing strategy for decades.
Most all of our leadership team in D.C., on both sides of the aisle have been shaping policy for as long as 40 years now. So all of a sudden they are gonna reign China in on
chips and related tech?---sort of seems someone is intent on forcing China's hand on Taiwan.

 

[kenton]

"The Biden rules"....
So is this intended to propel the U.S. as a world leader in chip production? Why now?
Seems making us a leader in production of many products and independent of foreign supply chains should have been an ongoing strategy for decades.
Most all of our leadership team in D.C., on both sides of the aisle have been shaping policy for as long as 40 years now. So all of a sudden they are gonna reign China in on
chips and related tech?---sort of seems someone is intent on forcing China's hand on Taiwan.

Also the fact that China shutting down for Covid ground US manufacturing to a halt due to lack of micro chips.

 

[dcsipo]

Mmmkay... Well, you keep sterilizing and neutering your boys while teaching them 'love is love' and supporting whatever deviant, degenerate filth they can dream up.

I'll teach mine to hunt, fish, respect women (real ones with lady parts) and to fear the LORD.

We'll see who's bloodline is left to build microchips in the US 60 years from now .

There is a reason that the Chinese and Indian people do not support, condone or endorse moral relativism.

About a month ago My 12 year old niece told me that there are half a dozen kids in her grade that wear tails and ears everyday acting like dogs and cats...

Who is going to be more likely to attain a higher education and find a suitable mate to procreate with... The 12yo Chinese kid who's parents are always telling them to "wook haada"... or the 12 yo American kid who defecates in a litter box and licks themselves?

Wow, it was not my intention to hit a nerve, and I think that you are misjudging where I’m coming from.

On a regular basis, I hear of thought provoking, intelligent conservative speakers presentations being cancelled on college campuses. Here are some examples. Condoleezza Rice - cancelled after being protested by Rutgers faculty. Ben Shapiro - refused by the University of Minnesota. Berkeley cancelled Ann Coulter and Milo Yiannopoulous. There is a long list of intolerance from the cancel culture. Antifa portends to be anti fascist, but engages in fascist behavior itself. The list goes on and on. Yet how often do you hear of a liberal speaker being cancelled? When I was in college we were presented with a plethora of liberal speakers, including socialists and communists. Lots of students went to listen to them, and then we had active discussion afterward regarding the pros and cons of their positions. But there is no active discussion allowed by the woke crowd.

If you’re fed the exact same food at every meal, your body is going to be missing out on some necessary nutrition. I posit that the same holds true for one’s mind.

Why do you keep listening to the fringe? Or do you want to believe the people you mentioned are not fringe? And let's say Racheal Maddow wanted to speak at CPAC; how well do you think that would go, or Robert Reich at Liberty? Why do right-wing fringe characters insist on infiltrating places where they are not wanted and then whine about it? Is it just pointing out that left wing-nuts are smarter by not forcing themselves on right-wing nuts? . If the thread does not fit, why force it? You know these accusations of cancel culture go both ways, right? Left? And what is woke anyway? Is it like the Red Army Underground or Che and his followers? The Scientologists? The main goal of the propaganda the people watch is to make them scared of "the others." Both sides are doing a fabulous job. It just seems like the right is more scared than the left.

 

[ghost of christmas past]

This is a stupid thread about an even stupider action by the stupidheads in worshington. The result is obvious, China has plenty of money and they'll dump it into chipmaking. Then they'll go from being one of the biggest customers of a US product to a supplier that will deliver worldwide at lower cost. You just created your own biggest competitor. Moronic move.

btw, several equipment suppliers are already hurting, (Applied Materials for example, any bay area guys here should recognize their name, most of us have done work for them), they are going to lose 30% or more of their sales. Smooth move, ex-lax. Many of these companies are complaining bitterly but the news does not report it, in the orgy of "bad China, we'll hurt them" stupidity. Yeah, go ahead, shoot yourself in the nose, see where that gets you, morons.

If I were in the ic business, I'd say "fuck you" to the feds.

Let's Go Brandon, with the brains of a flea. By the time he's done y'all will be lucky to have any economy left at all.

And no, covid didn't block i.c. shipments. There were several factors : automakers cancelled their orders at the start of the epidemic, then discovered they needed components. Unfortunately for them, they are a pimple on the gnat's ass in the electronics world. Other users filled their order slots so they were left without through bad planning on their own part. Lots of "supply chain" stuff is caused by greed (containers that were $3,000 are now $18,000 for shipping) or stupidity. "Supply chain disruptions" is in reality code for "we fucked up but want to blame it on others".

One more insignificant point, the asshole in charge does not have the legal power to do this. The constitution specifically states that only congress can make decisions regarding international relations.

And last but not least, cars would be way better off without most of the electronic crap they put in them nowadays. In five years you won't be able to drive or repair your new Chebby because the rear seat heating sensor failed and the engine won't start or run wihtout it and it's no longer available. Oh goody. Progress is our most important product. And our people are our greatest asset.

And I won't come in your mouth.

 

[Freedommachine]

This is a stupid thread about an even stupider action by the stupidheads in worshington. The result is obvious, China has plenty of money and they'll dump it into chipmaking. Then they'll go from being one of the biggest customers of a US product to a supplier that will deliver worldwide at lower cost. You just created your own biggest competitor. Moronic move.

btw, several equipment suppliers are already hurting, (Applied Materials for example, any bay area guys here should recognize their name, most of us have done work for them), they are going to lose 30% or more of their sales. Smooth move, ex-lax. Many of these companies are complaining bitterly but the news does not report it, in the orgy of "bad China, we'll hurt them" stupidity. Yeah, go ahead, shoot yourself in the nose, see where that gets you, morons.

If I were in the ic business, I'd say "fuck you" to the feds.

Let's Go Brandon, with the brains of a flea. By the time he's done y'all will be lucky to have any economy left at all.

And no, covid didn't block i.c. shipments. There were several factors : automakers cancelled their orders at the start of the epidemic, then discovered they needed components. Unfortunately for them, they are a pimple on the gnat's ass in the electronics world. Other users filled their order slots so they were left without through bad planning on their own part. Lots of "supply chain" stuff is caused by greed (containers that were $3,000 are now $18,000 for shipping) or stupidity. "Supply chain disruptions" is in reality code for "we fucked up but want to blame it on others".

One more insignificant point, the asshole in charge does not have the legal power to do this. The constitution specifically states that only congress can make decisions regarding international relations.

And last but not least, cars would be way better off without most of the electronic crap they put in them nowadays. In five years you won't be able to drive or repair your new Chebby because the rear seat heating sensor failed and the engine won't start or run wihtout it and it's no longer available. Oh goody. Progress is our most important product. And our people are our greatest asset.

And I won't come in your mouth.

 

[Milling man]

Who is going to be more likely to attain a higher education and find a suitable mate to procreate with... The 12yo Chinese kid who's parents are always telling them to "wook haada"... or the 12 yo American kid who defecates in a litter box and licks him/her or there/they or zee/zerr selves?

Birt data from China suggested that a child from United States is still more likely I am very, very, very not jealous of Chinese children with their hyper-competitive education. I spoke with several students from China, and they all have about the same story - "Only when i left China that i realized that there is something in life other than study".

 

[Mark Rand]

Where are the Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography machines made that China want and the US says they mustn't have? They,re made in Veldhoven, in the Netherlands. By ASML, a company that was started by two other Dutch companies:- Philips and ASMI.

How the fuck does the US think it's got any right to cripple development in the rest of the world?

 

[jim rozen]

"In the USA, total population of ages 0 - 24 is around 104 million. 2% of that total is roughly 2 million people - at the genius level - many of whom may have an impact on technology and other development for the next 30 years. However, we wouldn't even be at that level of birth if it wasn't for the illegal immigrants - many of whom have a higher birth rate than US citizens."

Excuse me, but aren't immigrants also part of your 'genius' statistics? That means that for every immigrant, our 'genius' quota goes up overall. Oh. I'm sorry. By "immigrant" you mean somebody that doesn't vote like you do. Or maybe has a different color skin. How could somebody with brown skin have a high IQ, huh.

 

[SeymourDumore]

This is a stupid thread about an even stupider action by the stupidheads in worshington. The result is obvious, China has plenty of money and they'll dump it into chipmaking. Then they'll go from being one of the biggest customers of a US product to a supplier that will deliver worldwide at lower cost. You just created your own biggest competitor. Moronic move.

Well, Amen to that!
Finally a real competition, may the best one win!
As far as I am concerned, it should have never been allowed to get to this point where they can even be in the same league, let alone in the World Series as the direct opponent.
Brandon's idea or not, I hope it results in something positive.