Tormach or not?

[mcw89]

Given that the OPs first criteria is "fits in my basement" its unlikely that any real industrial CNC machine can be considered anyway. Maybe the little "second-op" mills on castors might go in but I think nothing more serious.

Not so sure how valid the speed issue is either. If you aren't making parts for a living you won't be standing over it waiting for any relatively complex part anyway. If a Tormach takes 45 minutes, a Hass 15 and a Brother 5 odds are the part is complex enough that you only want one or two so you will wander away to get on with something else and come back when its convenient. Maybe an hour or more later. So really the main difference boils down to spindle time - standing time ratio. So long as its done when you are ready who cares what percentage was spindle time.

So if the Tormach is sufficiently accurate and can handle appropriate cutters to get the job done it could well be perfectly practical.

As turnworks asks what is the realistic metal shifting capability and how does that relate to the jobs you intend to do.

Plenty of folk seem to find the Tormach price / performance / capability / how-long-do-I have-to-wait equation satisfactory whilst acknowledging that in a perfect world something much better would be nice. No difference to the real machinists saying a Bridgeport is a floppy, flexi, weak bit of kit (which comparatively speaking it is) whilst the Bridgeport drivers just roll up their sleeves, get on, and get the job done. But slower.

Being able to walk away while a CNC machine works completely changes the toy / not toy equation when compared to manual machines. Manual you have to stand over it so you directly notice when the machine isn't up to making the largest accurate cut the job can stand so the cost is real now time. CNC its more about schedule come back in 20 minutes et al sort of thing. Set-up time will be similar whatever the machine, probably longer than at work because you won't have all the kit.

Clive

Speed is not a problem right now. I know that a tormach cant be compared to a used "pro" machining center, I am just not sure what kind of tolerances and surface finish I could accomplish with a tormach 440.

 

[mcw89]

Yeah
but overall machine height is the problem for my basement

 

[memphisjed]

What kind of tolerances in aluminium are we talking about with a tormach? Can I for example mill a d=30mm H7 (1.18") pocket?

not bashing tormach- but their tolerance on the machine is less than accuracy you are after. https://tormach.com/media/asset/t/d/td10351_pcnc440_cert_inspect_1120a.pdf

 

[mcw89]

I just discovered the Emco Concept Mill, maybe this would be something for me:
Concept Mill 55: EMCO lathes and milling machines for CNC turning and milling

 

[Milland]

Not to be a grump, but that's only a 10kg table load capacity, which is very little. And with a 3500 max spindle speed, again, not impressive.

How much vertical height can you find in your basement? Can you use the space between floor beams, presuming an unfinished ceiling? And do you have access from the outside, or would everything have to come down stairs?

 

[mcw89]

Usable height in the basement is around 190cm (6.3 feet)
Everything needs to go down a few steps downstairs.

 

[Milland]

Check out the Syil line:

Mini CNC Mill | Best Benchtop CNC Milling Machine | SYIL 5

Again, I'd prefer something more robust, but at least this can take a 50kg table load.

 

[CITIZEN F16]

This mill uses less electricity than my Tree manual. Something to consider when in a residential area.

You could probably run a modest sized professional grade machining center, the needed air compressor and phase converter off 60 amps, definitely on 100 amps. If a house has natural gas for central heat, water heater and range it won't be using that high of percentage the meter capacity during typical use. The AC probably takes more than most everything else combined.

 

[Milland]

OP lives in Switzerland, I'm not sure they have indoor toilets yet.

Seriously, some older areas do have fairly light electrical capacity, that is something to consider when getting a (even a small) machining center.

 

[jaguar36]

Thanks for your reply. What kind of tolerances in aluminium are we talking about with a tormach? Can I for example mill a d=30mm H7 (1.18") pocket? And what about reaming?

Do you actually need tolerances that tight? You could probably make it work, but if you are consistently needing that level of precision I doubt you'd be happy with a Tormach. Could probably get a Haas OM/CM or a Datron Neo in a basement, but they are an order of magnitude more expensive.

 

[Micmac1]

I feel like i would go with a haas TM-0 without a tool changer before i bought a tormach if i was dead set on new....but preferably something used thats a little beefier for the same price.

 

[mcw89]

OP lives in Switzerland, I'm not sure they have indoor toilets yet.

yeah, we live in the mountains with cows, eat cheese and chocolate and bunker nazi gold under our beds..

 

[Milland]

yeah, we live in the mountains with cows, eat cheese and chocolate and bunker nazi gold under our beds..

I have it on good authority that the cows give chocolate milk.

 

[72bwhite]

Ok the big short comings I noticed was tool holders pulling out of the machine
And the steppers losing steps

Would I throw a free one out no
But a haas mini or office would eat it’s lunch

 

[TeachMePlease]

I just discovered the Emco Concept Mill, maybe this would be something for me:
Concept Mill 55: EMCO lathes and milling machines for CNC turning and milling

No. If a Tormach is a toy, the Concept Mill is a knockoff of a Playmobil toy vs a real Lego toy.

We had one during my apprenticeship. We literally only cut Renshape foam with it, I wouldn't ever have tried to cut even aluminum in it.

Also, the controller is terrible. It's a knockoff of a generic Fanuc, to teach basics, but it sucks even worse than most Fanucs I've run. And there's no MPG for touching off tools. You just have a +/- button for each axis, and a feed rate override knob. So good luck getting tools within more than +/- .005" of each other when touching off.

 

[DocsMachine]

Usable height in the basement is around 190cm (6.3 feet)
Everything needs to go down a few steps downstairs.

-The Trak VM2 absolutely will not fit under a 6-1/2' ceiling. It's also knocking on the door of 3,000 lb, which might make the whole "down some stairs" thing pretty tricky.

Doc.

 

[Doozer]

Probably hard milling with carbide is out of the question.

-D

 

[turnworks]

No. If a Tormach is a toy, the Concept Mill is a knockoff of a Playmobil toy vs a real Lego toy.

We had one during my apprenticeship. We literally only cut Renshape foam with it, I wouldn't ever have tried to cut even aluminum in it.

Also, the controller is terrible. It's a knockoff of a generic Fanuc, to teach basics, but it sucks even worse than most Fanucs I've run. And there's no MPG for touching off tools. You just have a +/- button for each axis, and a feed rate override knob. So good luck getting tools within more than +/- .005" of each other when touching off.

I actually had some time on those it was a friends toy. I agree mostly toy along with very very limited table and travels, super slow rapids, no coolant, ultra low spindle hp, expensive holders with a weird dimensions on overall length and pullstud.

Could help someone learn the basics I guess though.

Max cut was 9 ipm full width 3/8" 4fl end mill .030" rad .040" depth in 6061 aluminum. Acceptable finishes climb cutting with air blast coolant mist. With extra software and air blast it made for a good engraver though just really slow. I had him engrave some grade 5 titanium coins for my nieces and nephews as Christmas presents before. Did fine on those. He had some fonts I wanted that I didn't have.

Doesn't help the OP much but more info is always better.

 

[ihavenofish]

Tormach is single phase power. This puts it in a special class. If you only have single phase power (like everywhere here except pure industrial buildings), then all of these bargain used "real" machines are useless. Phase converters are fussy (they don't make true 3 phase), and expensive, and you'll likely need an expensive transformer on top, maybe a new electrical panel. Oh, and they might be a basket case that causes you $10000 in repairs the first year.

So, there is a purpose for the Tormach to exist.

That said, the machine is not great even by those standards, and because it passes from china to the US it is subject to high tarrifs right now that inflate the price even beyond the already inflated prices. Since you do not live in the US, you can save a lot of money choosing a non american/chinese hybrid machine.

My friend is having good luck with his syil with siemens control. But it is 3 phase and I've heard siemens has no controls to supply right this minute so it might take a long while to get.

 

[DDoug]

And they are real versatile, if a job comes along that a Horizontal would be better for chip control, simply hold it up against a nearby wall, and qty (4) self drillers later, WALLA ! a horizontal CNC mill.