What's new
What's new

Tormach or not?

TM-1 can be single phase:

TM-1 Pre-install Guide

Priced similarly to a Tormach.

I'd forgotten about the TM0/P (P has ATC). This is a better more fair comparison. Specced to be "on par" with the best tormach (10k spindle, hsm, rigid tap), it comes out at 35kus/40kus, which is within the margin of lunch money on a lease vs the tormach.

The only downside is it is physically larger and much heavier, so getting it into small spaces will be more challenging (expensive).

If you have room though, it is a million times better value.

If haas came up with a TM minus1 that scaled the physical size down a little and maybe used bt30, they would eliminate tormach from all the but borderline hobby space.
 
According to the spec and users, it leaves the 2 180 degree phases of your 240 v circuit intact, and creates a 3rd. So, unless these spec have changed very recently no, it is not true 120 degree 3 phase, and yes, SOME machine do have issue with it... like my neighbours.

This isn't a debate.

me thinks you don't have a great understanding of vector mechanics.... If the generated leg is the right length and angle to the line legs, then they become equidistant, and thus 120* apart, and real balanced 3 phase. That goes for both a rpc and a pp. For an the only 2 gotchas are it drags the center point a bit up from center so the wild leg will have a higher line to neutral voltage - which is just like high leg delta service, and a rpc won't sink current so it fucks with regen braking.

My guess is that for most vfd's that need 3 phase input you could probably make it with a LC circuit and not even need the rpc. It just wouldn't be a very stiff supply.
 
I understand how the converter works, I know that leg to leg they are designed to read correctly - I don't fully understand why some machines don't like it, but I know that some machines don't. This is the point though. Someone looking at old machines cause they are on a tormach budget is unlikely to have the ability to deal with all of this. I justifies the existence of this class of machine.
 
If haas came up with a TM minus1 that scaled the physical size down a little and maybe used bt30, they would eliminate tormach from all the but borderline hobby space.

That's kind of CM-1 territory, maybe, almost. I'm having success making small medical device parts with mine. 36 tools, probing, HSM, 50,000RPM. Fourth axis on it, wired for five. About half of what I paid was for options.
 
That's kind of CM-1 territory, maybe, almost. I'm having success making small medical device parts with mine. 36 tools, probing, HSM, 50,000RPM. Fourth axis on it, wired for five. About half of what I paid was for options.

Not really, cm1 is a more different light duty machine, and twice the price no? over 50k? Maybe I'm thinking of the older office machines. I'll have to re check.

edit: yeah 63k. thats in a whole different category.
 
I understand how the converter works, I know that leg to leg they are designed to read correctly - I don't fully understand why some machines don't like it, but I know that some machines don't. This is the point though. Someone looking at old machines cause they are on a tormach budget is unlikely to have the ability to deal with all of this. I justifies the existence of this class of machine.

Well from your above posts it doesn't sound like you do understand.... And you are missing the point of everyone else. To be worth a shit at running one of these things you need to be able to figure things out. If you can't figure out how to make 3 phase machine run on single phase, chances of ever making anything beyond a very simple part are slim to none. That niche you think they fit in, is probably better filled by a $10k cnc knee mill. You start thinking you need a tool changer and enclosure and such and that niche quickly folds.

They price a tormach like it's a real machine tool, and it's not. $8k for a grizzly mini mill with steppers is a bit much I think. Basically 40k once you add an enclosure and tool changer that's CRAZY. An 1100mx cost 10x what I paid for my tree, takes up 50% of the floorspace, but can't do even half the work? Probably not even 1/10. And I run the tree pretty hard on ancient 100A service and a 5hp rpc so the power deal is bogus. I get it's new vs used, but really whats the tormach going to be like after 2000hrs hard use, and how much is the tree gonna change in 200hrs hard use? Gotta remember that 10X productivity thing...
 
If you can't figure out how to make 3 phase machine run on single phase, chances of ever making anything beyond a very simple part are slim to none.

That's not quite fair. I've shown my naivete here when it comes to electrical/electronic issues, and yet I've designed and/or machined thousands of parts, including a bunch in orbit.

I'd say there's many of us posting here who are competent in our field of machining and manufacturing who would struggle with relatively basic electrical concepts or implementation. It's a very different skillset, not everyone can do both well.
 
A fully loaded tomarch 1100mx with servos, servo spindle, atc and 4th axis table is 32k or so. At least 5k of that it tarrifs though so the price *should* be closer to 25k.

I think they are terrible value and I do not see any situation where there isn't a better alternative, but don't misrepresent the price point and features here.
 
That's not quite fair. I've shown my naivete here when it comes to electrical/electronic issues, and yet I've designed and/or machined thousands of parts, including a bunch in orbit.

I'd say there's many of us posting here who are competent in our field of machining and manufacturing who would struggle with relatively basic electrical concepts or implementation. It's a very different skillset, not everyone can do both well.

Do you think if you were faced with needing to run 3 phase machines on single phase you would know where to ask your questions and be capable of phrasing them respectfully and following along with helpful suggestions from peers?

Or would you blanket statement like "Tormachs have a market because phase conversion is an impossible feat for a majority of people"
 
Do you think if you were faced with needing to run 3 phase machines on single phase you would know where to ask your questions and be capable of phrasing them respectfully and following along with helpful suggestions from peers?

Or would you blanket statement like "Tormachs have a market because phase conversion is an impossible feat for a majority of people"

Heh - I cheated and bought a building with proper 3ph power. But sure, if need be I could have either rolled my sleeves up and researched conversion from single phase, or found the right contractors to do it.

But when you've been on a forum as long as you and I have, you do notice that some people can't ask questions or make statements as well or clearly as you'd hope. I guess that's it's own skillset... ;)
 
Heh - I cheated and bought a building with proper 3ph power. But sure, if need be I could have either rolled my sleeves up and researched conversion from single phase, or found the right contractors to do it.

But when you've been on a forum as long as you and I have, you do notice that some people can't ask questions or make statements as well or clearly as you'd hope. I guess that's it's own skillset... ;)

95% of machine buyers have never heard of this forum, let alone visited it.

I think we have an assumption that everyone else must be like ourselves. They very much are not. My friend owned a very successful company selling CNC machines to both business and higher end "hobbyists". He sold close to 1000 of them. I also worked closely with one of tormach's main competitors in the early days who sold thousands of machines. I know dozens of "professional" machinists and small shop owners in real life, including my dad.

Of all these customers and machinists, I'd say 10% of them had the ability or desire to learn to wire their own machine, and I am including the people that bought DIY kits you had to wire yourself, and especially including the guy I was paid to go help troubleshoot his shopbot only to find out the main power switch was off.

This entire discussion is about blanket statements, not detailed questions. Is a tormach good enough, and what are the alternatives? A used old machine that runs 3 phase is not an alternative for a very large section of the machine buying public, weather you want them to be or not. As a result for a large amount of the tormach potential customer base, comparisons to any used 3 phase machine is not relevant, even if you think YOU are knowledgeable enough to make it work.

I suggest we move on from this topic now, and on to actual comparable machines relevant to the OP.
 
A fully loaded tomarch 1100mx with servos, servo spindle, atc and 4th axis table is 32k or so. At least 5k of that it tarrifs though so the price *should* be closer to 25k.

I think they are terrible value and I do not see any situation where there isn't a better alternative, but don't misrepresent the price point and features here.

Uhh should be doesn't count. A premium 1100mx without any options is 34k. As much as I hate saying this, a haas mini mill starts at 36. it'll run on single phase, and fit about anywhere an 1100 will fit. So that's a much better alternative. as for the smaller ones without a toolchanger, it's shit grizzly wrongfu, ect mini mill with steppers, why would you pay a fortune for that.
 
Uhh should be doesn't count. A premium 1100mx without any options is 34k. As much as I hate saying this, a haas mini mill starts at 36. it'll run on single phase, and fit about anywhere an 1100 will fit. So that's a much better alternative. as for the smaller ones without a toolchanger, it's shit grizzly wrongfu, ect mini mill with steppers, why would you pay a fortune for that.

34k with no options... did they jack the price up 50% in the last few weeks? *checks*

Barf, So not "no options* but yeah it went up 5k. 37k now with 4th axis. This include a probe and a few other things the 39k haas tm0p doesn't, but, yeah.... skip! You used to get a robodrill mate for that. For reference, when the original 1100 launched a million years ago, it was $9999 and the TM1 was $22000.

On the cheaper machines - they aren't any more cheap crap as the mx versions, just smaller. (meaning they are all low grade dovetail castings).

The OP is looking at the cheap model, which I haven't look at in a while.. *checks*
$17000 with atc, no 4th. What the actual....

I mean, I honestly thought they were bad value before, at pre tariff prices.

The haas mini gets up to 45k with a reasonable spec (going vs mx here) so, it now winds up not that far off, but the tm0p is the best value if you can make room.

For actual small machines, it gets really tricky. The depressing truth is a 15mm ground screw and a 25mm ground screw cost ore or less the same. All your important bits that make up the bulk of the machine price cost the same. Siemens servos are more or less all the same price from 200w to 2kw for example.

That's said, for the 17k, I could, even with a generous profit build something 100x better than that tormach 440. (that's a statement, not an offer, ha)
 
That's said, for the 17k, I could, even with a generous profit build something 100x better than that tormach 440. (that's a statement, not an offer, ha)

Many have said that but nobody has done it.

Either you all are FOS & it can't actually be done or when it comes to it, want to max out the price rather than look at a reasonable profit and many more sales.

So either way it's fantasy-land to say it.

PDW
 
Get a used Haas and phase converter, call it a day. Haas totally lies about the power. Whatever the number is on the cabinet breaker, divide in half, that's the phase converter you need.
 
Many have said that but nobody has done it.

Either you all are FOS & it can't actually be done or when it comes to it, want to max out the price rather than look at a reasonable profit and many more sales.

So either way it's fantasy-land to say it.

PDW

2 people have done it, although to varying degrees of success.
Sieg (the guys that started all this with the hobby manual machines grizzly rebrands) makes/made a machine called the V3 I'll have to search my emails. This had a siemens 808D control (not made anymore), linear guides, atc, 12k spindle, single phase ac servos, more or less a haas mini mill. better on some ways, worse in others. It was $23700 if I remember. They had a matching lathe for $16700. This was 7 years ago. It never ended up finding a distributor over here though.

The other one that did it, with more success but many hiccups is Mikini/skyfire (Defeng Ren). He started designing for mikini, which, I think I agree with you priced themselves out of the market. He then went and did a little machine under his own name. This was a great value at $5000-$10000 depending on spec, but he was alllll over the place as a company and destroyed a lot of good will. he still is around making 3 different sized machines (the mikini, the little one, and a middle one that is now very popular).

What these people lack though that tormach was wise to handle is a physical "base" of operations. Didn't need to be in the US, but it needed to be somewhere other than a warehouse no one can ever see. This of course costs money. $17k money? I don't buy it, but I'm not their accountant.
 
Get a used Haas and phase converter, call it a day. Haas totally lies about the power. Whatever the number is on the cabinet breaker, divide in half, that's the phase converter you need.

I don't know what its like in the US, but a here used reliable haas isn't much cheaper than the TM0P. Neither will go down the stairs into a 6 foot basement though.
 
a lot of shit spoken here. The OP asked about a very small machine. I just purchased one. I would way rather have the TM1 to the Tormach 440 but the price is well over double even when the little guy is decked out. The size of the TM1 isn’t close to what I can fit in my shop. I hope to be able to automate some small part, short run specialty work I’d way rather surf on the computer for an hour than stand at my Bridgeport for 10 minutes. I may have to eat my words as this is my first start with a CNC and the pathpilot software seems approachable to me. The pre-sales service I got from Tormach was fantastic and as I assemble this thing, the engineering is kinda cool. They aim for a niche and it is a niche which I seemed to have fallen into. I have a 800 lb toy that may serve several needs. A “real shop“ likely wouldn’t appreciate the IKEA like: ”some assembly required“. I am having fun.
 








 
Back
Top