Truck Transmission For Lathe

[paul39]

I want to use a 5 speed Isuzu small pickup transmission from a 2.3 liter engine on a 30 - 40 inch swing woodworking lathe. I will be using a 3 HP, 3 phase, 1725 RPM motor. I will be using a constant torque VFD on the motor.

Set up envisioned is small pulley on motor, larger pulley on input shaft of transmission, end of shaft supported in a bearing. Output shaft could have small pulley going to large pulley on 2 3/8 inch spindle in ball bearing pillow blocks, or directly connected with universal type joint, depending on the pulley / gear ratio calculations.

Does anyone have any thoughts or published calculations as to how much power will be lost going through the transmission?

The alternate would be a counter shaft with 4 step V - belt pulleys.

Any thoughts on the relative frictions of the 4 step V - belt system vs transmission running automatic transmission fluid.

I want a slow spindle speed of about 50 RPM at the motor speed of 1725 with the transmission in 1st gear.

Any and all thoughts are welcome.

First b & w photo below is Rude Osolnik's set up. I believe he used a dump truck transmission. I have no idea how big a motor.

Click on photo for bigger: Studio | Rude Osolnik

Thanks, Paul

 

[johnoder]

If, for instance the tranny had a 4:1 low gear, you would need another 8:1 in the belting.

I.E., 32:1 reduction from 1725 is 54 RPM

Frictional losses in the tranny will be very low.

 

[Herb in Delco]

The 5 speed Isuzu transmissions tend to lose the fifth speed--which is an overdrive--and therefore of no use in the application your thinking of. An undersized bearing sheds its balls and allows the gear set to separate, resulting in a loss of teeth. In general, the ratios in auto transmissions are too close to one another to make the different speeds that you will want. Even larger truck transmissions have a very low first, (which is good for you) but then the other ratios are close- although not as close as car ratios.

Another problem with vehicle transmissions is that their input shafts are not made to take side loads--belt pull for instance, so need an additional bearing mounted externally which must be aligned with reasonable precision on the input shaft

Why not advertise for a Drive-All gearbox? these were made by the thousands back when belt drive machinery was being converted from line shaft to individual electric motor drive. The ratios in these are designed with machine tools in mind--and there must still be a bunch laying around under workbenches or in corners. Almost impossible to break one or wear it out.

Been through all this years ago.

Herb Kephart

 

[warozz!]

We actually have one of these old belt driven lathes at our shop that Herb is referring to. It is setup with a pickup transmission and an electric motor. I will try to get some photos tomorrow and upload them for you.

I had no part in building this machine, and neither did my boss. It came with the building when he bought it, all we really use it for is polishing so I have not used it myself but once or twice.

 

[magneticanomaly]

A transmission from a heavier truck will have a wider range, that is, a lower first gear.

Neither input nor output shaft on vehicle trans is designed for side-load as from a belt.

Belt drive will be around the same efficiency as the transmission, and quieter.

A lot of belt-in and belt-out transmissions were made for machine tools in the converting-from-lineshaft days. Perhaps someone on the Antique forum has one to sell. A scrapyard near me has several varidrives.

If your Isuzu trans has six bolts holding the front bearing retainer on, instead of four, I might want to buy it, if you do not end up using it on your lathe.

 

[Bobw]

A transmission is nothing more than a gear box, who cares what the original input's and output's were designed to be, its still a fricken gearbox, so use it as a gearbox.

I see no problem using a tranny. Support the shafts as you need to, or not...

Heck, I've got a power steering pump running the hydraulics in my band saw. Clearly not its intended use, and the belt tensioner is an old piece of 4x4 smashed between the motor and pump, not the original design intention of the 4X4 either.

 

[Tonytn36]

The wood lathe my grandfather built in 1938 and used for his entire 40 year cabinetmaking career uses a Ford Model A 3 speed transmission. My brother currently has the lathe and it is still in use today.

 

[t.jones]

The trans will work fine, I looked at a big old metal lathe last summer that had a similar trans and a huge 5 hp single phase motor . Trans may not be designed for a constant side load but it was designed for 200 HP, If your worried put a grease zerk in the tailshaft. Low gear is probably 3.25 to 1, overdrive .8. Some overdrives were weak some worked fine . I would use type F auto trans fluid in the unit. ---Trevor -p.s. as far as noise the belt noise from my truck is loud and irratating

 

[dkmc]

"Lima-Drive" was a brand name of one of the 'line shaft conversion' gear boxes from back in the day. I have one on a punch press, and bought one 25 years ago for an old flat belt lathe I was fixing up. It is an electric motor, about 2-3HP attached to a 4 speed gear box, with an output shaft that you can put a flat-belt or other pulley on. A self contained unit.

They're are probably some out there someplace, maybe EBAY?

EDIT:
Here's one without the built in motor!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIMA-FOUR-S...280?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c1987be8



BTW
I have a small vert bandsaw that has a scrap yard 4 speed saginaw truck trans on it.
I cobbled it all together around 1980, turned the input and output shafts down to fit V belt pulleys
onto them (not fun, that is some very hard steel!) I just sprayed some aerosol grease on the input and output bearings, been doin fine all these years now.

 

[Bill D]

I am no expert but I would think a high rpm sports car would have lower transmission gear ratios then any truck. Are some of the gears standard so you could switch them around, or buy new ones, and change the ratios? How efficient would a hydralic pump/motor unit be? I understand the zero turn mowers use a once piece unit that are now floating around for under $200? These can handle 10-30 hp or so.
Bill D.

 

[johnoder]

Limas in many instances used a Model A Ford gear set altered enough to remove the reverse and make it the lowest forward gear. You can see the bent over Model A gear shift lever used in the one in the Ebay listing.

 

[Johann Ohnesorg]

Since you want to use a VFD anyhow get a far bigger motor than you need and mount it on the machine. A normal VFD will have a spread of 10-200% of the stated RPM on the motor. A 5HP will still deliver a shipload of torque, even down at 200RPM. All you have to do is turn a pot, no shifting or using of a clutch and you can set the RPM however you want.

In case you want to spend a lot of time at low RPM get rid of the motors fan and use an external unit that will cool the motor. This will avoid overheating of the motor due to low fan RPM. In case this is not enough, throw in a 2:1 toothbelt drive, found on a lot of cars between cam and crankshaft.

Cheers,
Johann

 

[dsergison]

..... How efficient would a hydralic pump/motor unit be? I understand the zero turn mowers use a once piece unit that are now floating around for under $200? These can handle 10-30 hp or so.
Bill D.

no, no ZTR mower trans will handle 10-30 hp.
because no mowers spend 10hp on propulsion.
mowers are designd to last <200 hrs at well under <2hp. (unless commercial)

but if you insist, I can hook you up with a craftsman torotrak transaxle.


hydraulic = ~10-20% power loss in not very well optimized system .

gears, 1% per gear mesh.

 

[adama]

Belts will lose some were around 3% if i remember right. But a lot of the potential losses will be ofset by your VFD. It will phase correct the motor and only appear as a resistive load to the line, hence not effect your phase angle at all on your incoming supply. unlike a 3 phase motor under varying states of load.

 

[paul39]

Why not advertise for a Drive-All gearbox? these were made by the thousands back when belt drive machinery was being converted from line shaft to individual electric motor drive. The ratios in these are designed with machine tools in mind--and there must still be a bunch laying around under workbenches or in corners. Almost impossible to break one or wear it out.Herb Kephart

I paid $50 for the Isuzu gear box. I have been looking for years for any smallish 4 - 5 speed gear box. The 3 HP new in box Baldor I bought at my local junk yard for 25 cents a pound. The shafts, bearing blocks, and 3 X 8 inch steel box beam came from the same place at the same price. This was years ago when they were buying steel at 4 & 5 cents a pound.

If anyone has a working Drive-All gearbox that would arrive at my door for $50 or trade for the Isuzu, I'm interested.

I decided on a gear box after looking at the price of big 4 step pulleys.
While I sell a few turnings, this is a hobby, and I have more time than money.

If I need to turn something at high speed I have a 14 inch swing lathe 800 - 2400 RPM, and a 20 inch swing with a 5 step pulleys and DC Leeson motor and variable drive.

I have had the smaller one up to the third step of 4 one time on a tiny spindle. I don't think the big one has been over 1000 RPM.

With a 30 inch out of balance stump on the face plate I don't want high RPM. When made round, the surface speed out on the rim doesn't need much RPM.

Thanks to everyone for all the encouragement and comments.

A couple of shop made lathes:

Redirect Notice

Finegrain's lathe, post 10:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converters-vfd/vfd-short-stop-168088/

Homemade Lathe

The Big Bowl

Paul

 

[crij]

Why not advertise for a Drive-All gearbox? these were made by the thousands back when belt drive machinery was being converted from line shaft to individual electric motor drive. The ratios in these are designed with machine tools in mind--and there must still be a bunch laying around under workbenches or in corners. Almost impossible to break one or wear it out.Herb Kephart

Herb,
Drive-all is still in business and still makes the gear boxes. A few years ago I had them make a new data tag for a mid 50's gearbox on the Ballast Tamper at the railroad museum. Drive All - Industrial Transmissions and Reducers

Take care,
Rich C.
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct 06226
Connecticut Eastern Railroad Museum

 

[dian]

johann, thats what i would do. problem is finding the motor. i have been looking to get a 750w, 1000rpm, 3-phase for quite some time, no luck so far. unexpensive of course.

 

[Andrew-W]

Will the Isuzu gearbox be happy spinning in first gear for very long? Maybe not.

 

[gorrilla]

I want to use a 5 speed Isuzu small pickup transmission from a 2.3 liter engine on a 30 - 40 inch swing woodworking lathe. I will be using a 3 HP, 3 phase, 1725 RPM motor. I will be using a constant torque VFD on the motor.

Set up envisioned is small pulley on motor, larger pulley on input shaft of transmission, end of shaft supported in a bearing. Output shaft could have small pulley going to large pulley on 2 3/8 inch spindle in ball bearing pillow blocks, or directly connected with universal type joint, depending on the pulley / gear ratio calculations.

Does anyone have any thoughts or published calculations as to how much power will be lost going through the transmission?

The alternate would be a counter shaft with 4 step V - belt pulleys.

Any thoughts on the relative frictions of the 4 step V - belt system vs transmission running automatic transmission fluid.

I want a slow spindle speed of about 50 RPM at the motor speed of 1725 with the transmission in 1st gear.

Any and all thoughts are welcome.

First b & w photo below is Rude Osolnik's set up. I believe he used a dump truck transmission. I have no idea how big a motor.

Click on photo for bigger: Studio | Rude Osolnik

Thanks, Paul

There is a fellow I used to work for, lurks around here sometimes. Goes by Alphonso. PM him. He's done exactly what your trying to do, almost. He ran an electric motor into a heavy 5 speed truck tranny, then the output from that went into another tranny turned around output to putput with that first tranny. Two 5 speeds. Get the gears right and you have a super low. Or put them in high gear, and you run right off the motorspeed. I guess if you set it right, you'd get overdrive. He has it set up on an old LeBlond chucker with a Hydra Trace on it. Machine is about 36 inches as I remember it. He's done it, should be able to talk you right through it.