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Trying to restore another Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe, serial #195

cazksturner

Plastic
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Location
Wichita, KS
I'm creating this thread because I have a Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe with serial number 195 stamped in the three usual spots - underneath the tailstock casting, between the ways of the lathe bed, and on the headstock itself. I've had the lathe since 2015, and I've done absolutely NOTHING with it. Just a few days ago I finally decided to tear into it, as they say. I'm hoping I can get some of my questions answered here. Most of my questions will be specific to the Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe, but a few will be fairly generic and straightforward.

I plan to ask just one question at a time.

I'll get to the headstock later on, but my first questions will be about the tailstock.

The pic I've attached shows 3 different problems, but for now I'm only asking about the screw sticking straight up at the top, in the middle of the tailstock (see picture).
From the pics I've seen of other Rivett 1R's, there's supposed to be a knob there to tighten or loosen the tailstock runner. Mine's missing. I don't know if that screw is original or not.
I'm hoping someone here who has a 1R can take their "tightening knob" off and take some really sharp, clear pictures along with some dimensions. Maybe some pics from different angles?

Thanks in advance, and more questions later on once I solve this mystery...
...Doug
 

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L Vanice

Diamond
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Location
Fort Wayne, IN
Here are some pictures and dimensions for my Rivett 1R tailstock #451. I will note that this is the tailstock for #451, but only the headstock and bed have the number 451 on them. My Rivett 1R #89 has the number on all three parts.

I did see that there are lots of clear red acrylic rods of various sizes on eBay. Easy to buy and see if the color is OK.

If the male center is correctly made for the tailstock, a tapered steel pin pushed into the cross hole will eject it. If you look through the cross hole, the small end of the taper should block about half of the hole.

Larry

Tailstock 451.JPG
Tailstock knob #451.JPG
Tailstock knob #451 2.JPG
Dimensions in inches.
Red knob large end .729; small end .362; length .609; dish depth .075; thread 10-32
Knurled knob large dia. .634; flat face dia. for washer .375; step length .050; overall length .545; stud length .313; thread 5-40 The knob is one piece of steel.
Washer dia. .313; hole .140 approx. c'sunk at one end; thickness .094 The washer covers the unthreaded portion of the stud and the c'sink goes against the knob.
Tailstock lock knob and washer #451 1.JPG
Tailstock lock knob and washer #451 2.JPG
Tailstock lock knob and washer #451 3.JPG
Tailstock ram lock #451.JPG
The only source for clear red plastic that I have in my shop is this very rare type of MAC Tools screwdrivers. I only have these three out of maybe 100 Mac screwdrivers in my collection. As far as I can see, these handles are the same color as the Rivett knob.
MAC clear red screwdrivers 2.JPG
 
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cazksturner

Plastic
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Location
Wichita, KS
Here are some pictures and dimensions for my Rivett 1R tailstock #451. I will note that this is the tailstock for #451, but only the headstock and bed have the number 451 on them. My Rivett 1R #89 has the number on all three parts.

I did see that there are lots of clear red acrylic rods of various sizes on eBay. Easy to buy and see if the color is OK.

If the male center is correctly made for the tailstock, a tapered steel pin pushed into the cross hole will eject it. If you look through the cross hole, the small end of the taper should block about half of the hole.

Larry

View attachment 374718
View attachment 374753
View attachment 374789
Dimensions in inches.
Red knob large end .729; small end .362; length .609; dish depth .075; thread 10-32
Knurled knob large dia. .634; flat face dia. for washer .375; step length .050; overall length .545; stud length .313; thread 5-40 The knob is one piece of steel.
Washer dia. .313; hole .140 approx. c'sunk at one end; thickness .094 The washer covers the unthreaded portion of the stud and the c'sink goes against the knob.
View attachment 374755
View attachment 374757
View attachment 374759
View attachment 374761
The only source for clear red plastic that I have in my shop is this very rare type of MAC Tools screwdrivers. I only have these three out of maybe 100 Mac screwdrivers in my collection. As far as I can see, these handles are the same color as the Rivett knob.
View attachment 374790
Larry, thanks for all that. I was hoping you'd respond. The pics you provided are as clear & closeup as I could have hoped for, and the dimensions are detailed enough to replicate the knob project start-to-finish! Overall, your response is beyond what I was hoping for! Thanks again, I really appreciate it.

A couple of observations:
1. It looks like you tapped the knob's material itself, to achieve the 10-32 threading. Can you confirm that was how the OEM knobs were made, and NOT with a threaded insert? I'm guessing the answer is yes.
2. The plastic from the MAC screwdrivers is interesting, and surprising. I recently read a post on the NAWCC forum about someone who replicated the same knob for his 1R from the handle from a Millers Falls 805-series screwdriver. Those seem to be semi-plentiful, and I currently have one on its way to me via eBay. I haven't seen it yet obviously, but the pictures from eBay were promising. Apparently Rivett was making the 1R knobs out of stuff called Permaloid, which was a transparent version of Tenite (at least that's my understanding from what limited info I can find). The post-WW2 era had tons of advances in plastics (did you ever see "The Graduate" with Dustin Hoffman?) and lots of new formulations were invented, and I guess plastic was considered to be "new, exciting and space-age".

Anyway, thanks again. More later.
 

L Vanice

Diamond
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Location
Fort Wayne, IN
My Rivett 1R #451 has all original parts. I have not made any 1R parts. The tailstock plastic knob has the threads tapped into the plastic.

I have been an NAWCC member since 1962, but seldom look at the forum.

Larry
 

cazksturner

Plastic
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Location
Wichita, KS
My Rivett 1R #451 has all original parts. I have not made any 1R parts. The tailstock plastic knob has the threads tapped into the plastic.

I have been an NAWCC member since 1962, but seldom look at the forum.

Larry
Larry,
That's good to know. I can rest assured that the dimensions you gave me are sourced from an original Rivett part, and not a copy.
It will take me some time, but I'll be adding to this thread as I progress.
...Doug
 

cazksturner

Plastic
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Location
Wichita, KS
My Rivett 1R #451 has all original parts. I have not made any 1R parts. The tailstock plastic knob has the threads tapped into the plastic.

I have been an NAWCC member since 1962, but seldom look at the forum.

Larry
Larry,
Progress report, and one last question.
First, last night I successfully extracted (with NO damage) the tapered center from the tailstock runner. It was difficult to do until I refined the "extraction tool" and used heat on the end of the runner.

One more detail I'd like to have before I try my hand at duplicating the tailstock knob & washer. I think the most challenging thing about it will be the knurls around the perimeter of the knob. Is there any chance you can tell me how many knurls there are in total? My guess is either 56 or 60. I studied one of your closeup pictures and I tried to visualize 1/4 of the circumference would be - it looked like either 14 or 15 knurls fit in the "9 o'clock" position and the "12 o'clock" position. I don't have a knurling tool, but I do have an accurate of holding & indexing the steel (1144 stressproof) material in my lathe, and I do have a lot of patience. I'll need it because I plan to hand-file the cuts.
 

L Vanice

Diamond
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Location
Fort Wayne, IN
The knob portion (diameter, contour and knurling) on the Rivett 1R tailstock lock is the same as on the headstock lock. As far as I could see, a Reed SS25 knurl wheel matches the knurling. I do not use files where a knurling tool will match the original work.

Here is a picture of the T-rest and hand knurling tool I made for my 9" Hardinge lathe. The brass piece is a demonstration of how the handheld straight knurling tool can knurl a curved surface. And a spiral straight-face knurl wheel will produce a sort of rope knurl on a curved surface.

Larry

DSC01177 small.JPG


DSC01180 small.JPG
 
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cazksturner

Plastic
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Location
Wichita, KS
The knob portion (diameter, contour and knurling) on the Rivett 1R tailstock lock is the same as on the headstock lock. As far as I could see, a Reed SS25 knurl wheel matches the knurling. I do not use files where a knurling tool will match the original work.

Here is a picture of the T-rest and hand knurling tool I made for my 9" Hardinge lathe. The brass piece is a demonstration of how the handheld straight knurling tool can knurl a curved surface.

Larry

View attachment 375491
Larry, that's brilliant. That one picture showed me a lot. Thanks... I'm not really a machinist (did it show?) but I love learning and nobody has even heard of Rivett on the other beginner forums!

PS... the Millers Falls screwdriver that I got on eBay showed up today. To be blunt - the color is close, but no cigar. The Rivett !R red plastic knobs have a deep, rich blood-red hue. The Millers Falls screwdriver I bought is close, but the color is less saturated and tends a bit toward the pinkish end of the spectrum. At some point I'll find a MAC Tools screwdriver - but what I thought would be the first part of my !R restoration will likely be the last.
 
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L Vanice

Diamond
Joined
Feb 8, 2006
Location
Fort Wayne, IN
In the same vein, but more relevant to using watch lathes...

In 1964 or so, I made some cut steel watch keys on my WW watch lathe. I used a jeweler's handheld milgrain tool to put beaded knurling on a couple keys. Just another idea for things you can do on metal with a lathe beyond simple turning operations. The facetted surfaces were filed and then polished with a lathe-mounted boxwood wheel and bobbing compound. Cut steel work was quite in fashion long ago, the simulated diamond of the 18th Century. It does tend to rust after some decades, so old examples are scarce.

Larry

DSC03072 cropped small.JPG
 








 
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