"UAW will strike against Detroit automakers if deals aren’t reached by Thursday (tomorrow)"

[dcsipo]

I doubt the UAW would be considered attractive to a lot of shops....at least not the owners.

It is not attractive for the owners, but it becomes just a number game when an organization can get the workers a much better deal. The real question is whether the UAW is realistic about the demands and the bargain. There is a reason only 10% of autoworkers work in a union shop. Historically, they have done a pisspoor job of convincing the workers that it is to their benefit to be members. But with getting more wins, they will get more support and more wins. The unions are more popular today than they have been since 1965.

U.S. Approval of Labor Unions at Highest Point Since 1965

Seventy-one percent of Americans approve of labor unions. Although similar to last year's 68%, approval is up from 64% before the pandemic.

news.gallup.com

 

[standardparts]

It is not attractive for the owners, but it becomes just a number game when an organization can get the workers a much better deal. The real question is whether the UAW is realistic about the demands and the bargain. There is a reason only 10% of autoworkers work in a union shop. Historically, they have done a pisspoor job of convincing the workers that it is to their benefit to be members. But with getting more wins, they will get more support and more wins. The unions are more popular today than they have been since 1965.

U.S. Approval of Labor Unions at Highest Point Since 1965

Seventy-one percent of Americans approve of labor unions. Although similar to last year's 68%, approval is up from 64% before the pandemic.

news.gallup.com

Sounds like America Is Back and union bosses will once again be frequent visitors at the White House.
Just the other day our President was proclaiming "And you know what the average wage in there is? $112,000, and you don’t need a college degree. (Applause.)"....in talking about (I think) a computer chip fab plant near Columbus, Ohio, which I'm guessing is UAW represented?
$112K a year....some pay that much for college tuition.
Anyway....things are gonna be just great. I'm absolutely sure of it.

 

[CarbideBob]

I doubt the UAW would be considered attractive to a lot of shops....at least not the owners.

Dad always said that if his shop voted in a union he would just shut it down.
The average of $112k a year average seems very weird to the guy who used to sign off the paysheets for his departments every Tuesday in a UAW plant.
I have to call major bullshit on that one. Most of my people made way less than 1/2 of that with overtime.
How do you make $112K at $18 or even $25 per hour? That would be a lot of overtime. Sundays and Holidays are double time but still?
Interesting that 659 here voted down the offer. Did not see that coming.

 

[standardparts]

Dad always said that if his shop voted in a union he would just shut it down.
The average of $112k a year average seems very weird to the guy who used to sign off the paysheets for his departments every Tuesday in a UAW plant.
I have to call major bullshit on that one. Most of my people made way less than 1/2 of that with overtime.
How do you make $112K at $18 or even $25 per hour? That would be a lot of overtime. Sundays and Holidays are double time but still?
Interesting that 659 here voted down the offer. Did not see that coming.

I'd hesitate to think the President would say something that was bullshit....maybe he was looking into the future (if it's about a computer chip fab near Columbus, Ohio) He also said "more than 20 new auto plants have opened across America. Twenty new auto- — opened, not closed." which might be true??
With the previous Pres media and news reporting were pretty religious about keeping track of lies so fact check being silent current President's claims are probably accurate. So what the heck...50-bucks-an-hour certainly sounds good to me.


Link to full text of speech 11/9/23 in Belvidere, IL.

Remarks by President Biden on Delivering for Working Families and Creating Good-Paying Union Jobs | Belvidere IL | The White House

Community Building ComplexBelvidere, Illinois 12:56 P.M. CSTTHE PRESIDENT: Hello, UAW! (Applause.) Hello, hello, hello, hello.Something

www.whitehouse.gov

 

[CarbideBob]

I'd hesitate to think the President would say something that was bullshit....maybe he was looking into the future

Only think I know is that I signed off on the paychecks, knew the deductions and how much paid before and after.
You know more that me so I am wrong and that is fine.
"I am just a mushroom in the world, keep me in that dark and full of bullshit."

 

[standardparts]

Only think I know is that I signed off on the paychecks, knew the deductions and how much paid before and after.
You know more that me so I am wrong and that is fine.
"I am just a mushroom in the world, keep me in that dark and full of bullshit."

Bob....Seriously, when it comes to the important stuff---how to make the tools to make stuff I only wish I knew one tenth of what you know and that also includes the workings of the auto industry.
At the end of the day, to me, the political boasts about job creation and U.S. manufacturing are just so much bullshit.

 

[Freedommachine]

I am waiting to see what effect it will have on the msrp of new vehicles, prices are already absurd.

 

[dcsipo]

Sounds like America Is Back and union bosses will once again be frequent visitors at the White House.
Just the other day our President was proclaiming "And you know what the average wage in there is? $112,000, and you don’t need a college degree. (Applause.)"....in talking about (I think) a computer chip fab plant near Columbus, Ohio, which I'm guessing is UAW represented?
$112K a year....some pay that much for college tuition.
Anyway....things are gonna be just great. I'm absolutely sure of it.

First, you have to deal with the "Average" Issue...There will be more engineers in chip fab than button pushers, nicely skewing the average toward the high end. Second, the UAW has nothing to do with the fabs, and third, there is a worker shortage in the foundries at all levels.

https://www.businessinsider.com/semiconductor-industry-jobs-salary-chips-phoenix-arizona-tsmc-students-2023-10.

Reshoring chip fabs is a good thing.

 

[standardparts]

Those stockholders are free to vote in the upcoming however they please.

It is my opinion that if people actually voted in their interest, Republicans would be competing with the silly walk party.

Actual working people need to get paid for their work, making money for the stockholders is a secondary consideration for regular people.
Without working people stockholders would make no money whatsoever

First, you have to deal with the "Average" Issue...There will be more engineers in chip fab than button pushers, nicely skewing the average toward the high end. Second, the UAW has nothing to do with the fabs, and third, there is a worker shortage in the foundries at all levels.

https://www.businessinsider.com/semiconductor-industry-jobs-salary-chips-phoenix-arizona-tsmc-students-2023-10.

Reshoring chip fabs is a good thing.

Was just having some fun with what the current President said/inferred/speculated in the Illinois speech.
And yeah, reshoring chip fabs is not a bad thing---lots of incentive money out there so sometime a couple of years from now we will see what becomes reality.

 

[wd72588]

I am waiting to see what effect it will have on the msrp of new vehicles, prices are already absurd.

A news article stated that the contract will cost $900-$1200 per vehicle. But don’t let that bother ya. Prices went up around 30% since the pandemic. They charge as much as they can get. Or ‘what the market will bear’. Crazy prices on trucks but they sell every damn one we make.

 

[hanermo]

Germany is well known for excellent autos, MB and BMW and AUDI for one.
In germany, workers in the cnc machinists trade cost about 54€ per hour.
There were about 900.000 when I visited emo in 2011.

I very much doubt that the US auto workers will get 100.000$ plus in pay ..
although their total burdened cost & investments with bennies and employer paid investments might perhaps approach that level.

Otoh..
tsla is well known for being a hard place to work at.
Mid management with little experience, fast growth, mandatory overtime etc etc.
But all, even the line workers on assy lines, get some tsla stock, and this has made almost everyone a near-millionaire.
780.000 $ extra compensation.

Given TSLA stock appreciation, are all employees who joined more than 5 years back multi-millionaires?

Answer: No, there are employees that joined 5 years back and left 4 years back and sold their shares. Tesla is a large enough company now that small pockets of bureaucracy, chaos and stupid exist and people will leave those areas quickly. Tesla also has many assembly line workers that make aroun...

www.quora.com

In germany great pay and conditions translate to great autos, and cnc machine tools.
Kern is one.
In the US, with tsla, very good pay and lots of paid overtime translate to great paychecks, and big stock-based compensation, and great autos.

Sure, it´s hard, and sure, there are/were failings at tsla work management .. but everyone sure got paid.

Hard work and hard pay seems a fair trade.
And tsla being the nr1 US brand, safest auto in the world, pretty much best auto in the world, pretty much biggest and fastest growing us conglomerate in the world, and sharing the wealth to line workers, seems a good deal to me.

 

[hanermo]

Yes, no.
A base sedan costs about 3000$ engine, 3000$ transmission, 4000$ everything else.

The work-hour per vehicle are at about 60 hours.
So 60 hours at 50$ = 3000 $.
Any change in workers pay will not mean much to that 3000$ figure.

US trucks are a special case,most- only in the US, where the makers make lots of money.
Nothing wrong with that.
imho..

Where US consumers willingly buy very expensive trucks, from US manufacturers, creating great profits for US auto makers, I don´t see a problem.

A news article stated that the contract will cost $900-$1200 per vehicle. But don’t let that bother ya. Prices went up around 30% since the pandemic. They charge as much as they can get. Or ‘what the market will bear’. Crazy prices on trucks but they sell every damn one we make.

 

[CarbideBob]

The starting wage for production workers will increase 67% from $18.04 per hour to $30.21.

Say What? Source of this information?
That is much different than the agreements I have seen.
Walk in the door off the street, go on the line, and get paid $30? WOW.

 

[standardparts]

Biden meets with Xi Wednesday at the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in San Francisco.
Wonder if the topic of sanctions and tariffs will come up and if China will be able to enter the U.S. EV market with low cost vehicles or will continue to supply components and engage in joint ventures in the U.S.?

 

[CarbideBob]

The big difference became "temp" workers and how long you are a temp.
At one time in the way back machine these where 89 days of employment. Think summer jobs for many.
Then auto went to shit and it could be 6 years to the other wage.
I knew a guy in the 80's who made $140k as a tool crib attendant. (talk about a cushy job). At this time he is making more than a plant manger.
He was divorced, lived in a motor-home in the parking lot. Went after any absenteeism or overtime he could get as he literately lived in the plant.
At one time coming out of high school and going here was so great.
For sure if one of my employees got that ask or golden ticket I knew I could not hang onto them. Now not so much.
It is confusing and so many devils in the details.
And there is the $1200 price tag run up on vehicle over the next four years with this. What to make a guess on TELSA sell price four years out?

 

[standardparts]

The big difference became "temp" workers and how long you are a temp.
At one time in the way back machine these where 89 days of employment. Think summer jobs for many.
Then auto went to shit and it could be 6 years to the other wage.
I knew a guy in the 80's who made $140k as a tool crib attendant. (talk about a cushy job). At this time he is making more than a plant manger.
He was divorced, lived in a motor-home in the parking lot. Went after any absenteeism or overtime he could get as he literately lived in the plant.
At one time coming out of high school and going here was so great.
For sure if one of my employees got that ask or golden ticket I knew I could not hang onto them. Now not so much.
It is confusing and so many devils in the details.
And there is the $1200 price tag run up on vehicle over the next four years with this. What to make a guess on TELSA sell price four years out?

Hard to guess what TESLA will be selling it's vehicles for but some predictions are less than $30K by the mid 2020s.
They say the huge savings are due to "GIGA" castings. TESLA is BIG on GIGA. The technology comes from IDRA GROUP in Italy. Short lead and production times.
GIGA from IDRA. Everyone playing catch up? Maybe.
"Idra is a Tesla supplier and has recently added Ford and Hyundai to its customer base as more carmakers explore this manufacturing technique. It is owned by China's LK Industries."
Good info on IDRA/GIGA castings:

Tesla's Giga Casting: An Innovation for Heavy Manufacturing

Giga Casting is a game-changer in the world of manufacturing. With a technology provided by IDRA Group, it harnesses colossal machines with clamping power of up to 9,000 tons to cast large metal parts as single, unified piece.

www.linkedin.com

 

[CarbideBob]

There is no 46, 67 percent raise despite what information has been fed to you.
I think those that like such also believe deep in the tooth fairy.
NOT REAL.
I deal it in the real world of money. Many of my family members sign off on the UAW paychecks now. General managers, Plant mangers, and supervisors.
I got out but did it for a while.
The net is full of what you want to believe.
The real road and row to hoe is maybe different.
There will be many of who think that these workers ask too much. And the other side of not giving enough to the workers.
So the new worldwide thing comes into play.
If I set up a satellite shop in China or India what do I have to pay?
Should USA wages be the same? Is a machinist in the USA better skilled than one in China, India or or other countries?

 

[jccaclimber]

At least around here Tesla has a pretty clear offer. You work stupid hours for underwhelming pay. However, because you’re working 2x the hours you’re getting experience at 2x the rate. They’ll also hire people (talking engineering, including MFG) who are a bit too low on experience and can’t easily get a job elsewhere.

The slackers are weeded out fast, a few thrive and do very well, loving the immersion in work, most others get their skills and experience up, then use that to get a job at a sane place elsewhere. Not that different than any other place out here for the middle 70%.

The high stock awards thing is entirely a function of the change in stock price, not because Tesla was feeling generous. Use Senior Eng as an example: $150k/year base, $50k equity, but the equity is converted to a number of RSUs when you hire. $200/year is 10% to 20% light for that skill level, but if you get in with limited experience it’s a fair trade.
Now, if the stock goes up 10x you’re now making $150k+$500k=$650k/year. If it goes down 10x you’re making $150k+$5k=$155k/year.
There’s a bit more to it, but at best it’s going to end after 4 years as the RSU’s all vest and the new grant is calculated at the now higher share price. It’s not a lot different than someone who bought the same quantity of shares on the public market and got lucky on the timing. In fact that person is going to be paying capital gains, not indirect income like the Tesla employee. It’s not at all different than someone who took a similar job at any other company that gives equity based compensation, it just happens they went through an atypical share price change.

The UAW had this chance with GM and Chrysler, but they decided to sell their shares, cashing out instead of keeping the benefits of ownership.

 

[wd72588]

Say What? Source of this information?
That is much different than the agreements I have seen.
Walk in the door off the street, go on the line, and get paid $30? WOW.

Start wage will be $30 four years from now. It will be $25 at ratification. Temps are going to be stuck at $21 I believe. Details are on the UAW website available to all.

GM Salary, Honda, and Toyota workers all got about a 10% raise.
U Are Welcome.

I imagine Elon is gonna have to pony up too here shortly.

 

[standardparts]

There is no 46, 67 percent raise despite what information has been fed to you.
I think those that like such also believe deep in the tooth fairy.
NOT REAL.
I deal it in the real world of money. Many of my family members sign off on the UAW paychecks now. General managers, Plant mangers, and supervisors.
I got out but did it for a while.
The net is full of what you want to believe.
The real road and row to hoe is maybe different.
There will be many of who think that these workers ask too much. And the other side of not giving enough to the workers.
So the new worldwide thing comes into play.
If I set up a satellite shop in China or India what do I have to pay?
Should USA wages be the same? Is a machinist in the USA better skilled than one in China, India or or other countries?

The world has gotten a whole lot smaller and faster then it was 30 or 40 years ago and I doubt in basic manufacturing there is not much of an intellectual stranglehold at this point. News said Ford was investing in a battery plant in Michigan and brought in a Chinese company who already had the know how to design and operate the place. No need for Ford to re-invent the wheel I guess.
Most all the current vehicle manufacturers have partnerships all over the world so if one location is lacking it's not to hard to believe they can shift work and process where it's needed.
Need a low cost EV?---Do what Stellantis did end of October and buy 51% of a Chinese EV manufacturer to compete in that market. No doubt Ford and GM will do the same.