What's new
What's new

Under-size drilling for a tapped hole. Bad idea ?

rons

Diamond
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Location
California, USA
From the chart:
tap size = 3/8
drill size = 5/16 (.3125)

Would using the next down size drill = N (.3020) alter the surface in any way? Are the charts that close to optimum?
Obviously going too far will break taps. The question is really about taking a greater depth and how that can effects the surface.
Down to things that a electron microscope could see.
 
Last edited:

???

Stainless
Joined
Jun 23, 2017
Bad idea. You don't gain any extra strength and if you're really lucky the tap will remove the extra material instead of breaking. A lot of the charts are too close anyway. For example most charts stipulate 5mm for M6x1, thread calculator at 70% which is adequate for most commercial work is 5.1mm. Extract from OSG below.

"To minimize tapping problems and lengthen tool life, use the largest drill possible to produce a minor diameter that will result in the lowest percentage of full thread consistent with adequate strength. A minor diameter that provides a 55% to 65% thread is sufficient for most requirements, but in some cases a higher percentage of thread may be necessary to conform with the minor diameter limits of the thread class specified.
Drills generally cut holes larger than their diameters. In the form bellow, the probable percentages of full thread were determined by the average amount oversize the various drills are expected to cut. Reaming becomes necessary when close control of the hole size is required."
 

Bill D

Diamond
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Location
Modesto, CA USA
In thin sheet a smaller hole will provide a little extra pullout. With only a few threads tap breakage is not too likely. I will leave the fine or corse pitch debate in thin stock alone.
Bill D.
 

rklopp

Diamond
Joined
Feb 27, 2001
Location
Redwood City, CA USA
It does not take much undersize to drive the tapping torque to the moon. You might get away with undersize tap drilling in plastics and shallow holes in aluminum, but it's really risky in steels, especially stainless. The issue is magnified even more with form taps, where the upset material runs out of space in the tap thread roots and you end up trying to squeeze solid metal in triaxial compression.
 

rons

Diamond
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Location
California, USA
I should have held back on this thought. Thought it would provoke a scientific explanation for surface finish.
This is a dud and admin should remove it. Not dud answers but dud idea.
 

SteveEx30

Stainless
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Location
CANADA
It does not take much undersize to drive the tapping torque to the moon

Definitely.

I think you would immediately notice a problem even dropping 1 size smaller as OP mentioned.
If anything we used to cheat holes a bit bigger to make things easier. (Not lifting holes obviously)
 

eKretz

Diamond; Mod Squad
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Location
Northwest Indiana, USA
They don't give those thread depth recommendations for surface finish reasons... After a certain percentage, any deeper threads just don't make that much stronger of a hole. And they are a terror to tap. If you really want me to delete the thread I will.
 

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
Tapped holes do come in different classes of fit. They do sell taps that are slightly undersize. While that may be off topic, it might be related to the OP’s intent. Many threads in automotive applications are tight fits; some require a torque just to install the stud originally.

BTW, for metric tapping, I always use the rule: tap drill = thread dia. - pitch. Has worked for me for 50 or more years, mostly with automotive applications. Never found it hard to tap using that formula.
 

john.k

Diamond
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Brisbane Qld Australia
My Chinese replacement head for my pickup had tight and clearance threaded holes ......in the correct locations ........I managed to get most correct ,missing only a couple in the intake manifold ,which I tapped out to clearance size ,rather than backtracking on the assembly .
 

dstig

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 22, 2014
Location
W WI
Well there are a lot of "it depends" in the question that are not addressed by info given. The charts are for the typical 70% thread but that is not always what is needed. Soft materials or very thin, you may want to go up to 80% or possibly even more. Very hard or difficult materials 50-55-60% is not a bad idea. I used 55% a lot on some 304 stainless work I did a couple years back and it was still hard to do by hand but has held up quite well.

Not really sure what you mean by "affects the surface" either. What surface? Do you mean the surface of the thread itself?
 

john.k

Diamond
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Brisbane Qld Australia
If you want to see strange threaded holes,Lee Precision ,makers of reloading equipment seem to use a 30%-50% thread in tapped holes .........it works OK due to the large diameters and small forces in operation of reloading stuff.
 

LOTT

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
If you are after nice surface finishes use a thread mill. They always look better under a microscope than cut or form tapped threads.
 

John Garner

Titanium
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Location
south SF Bay area, California
Rimcanyon mentions the commonly-thought-to-be-exclusively-metric "rule of thumb" to calculate a workable tap-drill diameter: Drill Diameter = Major Diameter - Pitch.

I'll point out that the BASIC geometry of the Unified (aka ISO Inch) threadform is IDENTICAL to the BASIC Geometry of the ISO Metric threadform. Because the BASIC geometry of these threadforms are identical, the Drill Diameter = Major Diameter - Pitch is equally applicable to both Unified and ISO Metric threads.
 

trevj

Titanium
Joined
May 17, 2005
Location
Interior British Columbia
I'll suggest that it really depends on the material, the hole depth, the specs/tolerances/ Class of the thread, and a bunch of other details left out at the start. And, what you were hoping to gain...

I will freely admit to grabbing the next smaller drill, from what was calculated (dia-1pitch), or read off the chart, and acting as if all was perfectly normal, when the drill drawer was out of the size I needed...

I still hate #6-32 taps, though! :)
 

EPAIII

Diamond
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Location
Beaumont, TX, USA
SURFACE FINISH!

This is about surface finish, not thread strength or tap breakage or any of the other things everyone is bringing up. The original question was about surface finish!

Why, you ask! I don't know. But that is what he asked about. The effect on the surface finish that using a smaller tap drill would have.

So I will talk about surface finish and leave all the other details to others. First, it seems like Rons was asking about taps that cut the threads and not formed thread taps. His example of a 5/16" tap drill for a 3/8" thread and that is for a cut thread tap, not a formed thread tap. So we are talking about cutting the metal to make the threads, not pushing it out of the way.

IMHO, the surface finish of a thread that was cut by a tap is dependent on, in order of importance: the tap itself (cut, ground, it's finish, etc.), the cutting fluid used, and then, dead last, the size of the tap drill.

Why do I say that?

It should be somewhat obvious that a tap can not impart a better finish than the finish that it has. The same parts of a tap will trace across the corresponding parts of the thread being cut. So a small notch or hill on the cutting edge of a tap will be reproduced, in reverse in the thread. OK, different teeth of the tap will pass the same point on the thread, but still their effect will be a combination of their defects. So perhaps a bit better, but still generally the same level of finish. It is well known that ground taps make better threads than cut taps. This is an example of this idea. So I say that the primary factor on surface finish is going to be the tap itself.

Then cutting fluid comes in second. Cutting tools can have many problems generated between them and the metal being cut. Soft metals can build up on the cutting edge and deepen the cut. Hard chips can get dragged along and can cut the remaining metal themselves. And probably more that I don't even don't know about. A good cutting fluid for tapping will not be one that primarily cools the tap and metal being cut. Sure, it does that, but the cutting is slow so the amount of heat generated is minimal. No, the primary effect of the cutting fluid is to LUBRICATE. Many, dare I say most taps do not have any radial clearance. That means that the fully formed threads of the tap will be rubbing on the fully formed threads of the hole 100%. And that creates drag or friction. Friction can easily harm a surface that may have been cut cleanly by the tap's cutting edges. So by lubricating that interface between the outside of the tap and the inside of the hole, we not only decrease the amount of torque that is needed, but we also decrease the damage that can occur just behind that cutting edge.

That brings me to the tap drill size. Just how does that have any impact on the surface finish of the thread. Well, it may have a lot OR it may have very little. If a standard, multiple flute tap of the "taper, plug, bottom" type is used, then the chips will accumulate in the flutes. And, depending on the hole depth, they can become packed there very hard and rub against the thread being cut. This can damage the surface finish even if the tap itself does not. But now we come to the MANNER in which that tap IS USED. A careful and un-rushed machinist can frequently back the tap OUT of the hole and clean those accumulated chips out of the flutes BEFORE they can damage the surface finish. Or, a rushed machinist can just push that tap in as fast as possible without breaking it but allowing the chips to pack in solid and then rubbing against the thread being cut and damaging the surface finish.

So it is not so much the tap or the size of the tap drill, but the manner in which it is used that determines how much the surface is damaged by those chips. Of course, using a larger tap drill will mean that fewer chips are made so it will take longer for them to pack in the flutes. And using a smaller tap drill will mean more chips will be made so the flutes will fill up faster. But, the tap drill is not the primary mechanism for surface damage in this case. As I see it, that primary mechanism is the manner of use of the tap. The machinist's technique, if you will. Oh, and the lubrication qualities of the tapping fluid can also have a great effect on this.

And I do realize that all of the above is highly dependent on many other factors. Things like the material being tapped, the quality of the tap, the technique, and many others. I just tried to list the three primary things that I see and in the order in which I think they should be ranked. YMMV!

So, there you go: a surface finish discussion, as requested.
 

rons

Diamond
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Location
California, USA
I should have held back on this thought. Thought it would provoke a scientific explanation for surface finish.
This is a dud and admin should remove it. Not dud answers but dud idea.
I was thinking about SS threads. What if the threads could be cut in a way to leave the
finish burnished and hard to cut later. Like when parting-off and suddenly the tool just stops plunging in.
That type of finish would be resistant to galling. I mean a work-hardened surface than doesn't need a thread lubricant.

Instead of the finish where it looks good to the eye but up close the surface looks like brain matter. No wonder SS locks up easily.
For a manual machine I don't run more than 400 rpm at .005 steps. The hand controls are too slow for fast rpms.
 








 
Top