This is a brilliant insight and it bears repeating.
My children will learn to speak a second language, and it will be a language of a people who can benefit them.
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US Manufacturing - Tooling. The last 50 years.
- Thread starter juergenwt
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This is a brilliant insight and it bears repeating.
My children will learn to speak a second language, and it will be a language of a people who can benefit them.
SeymourDumore
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Location
- CT
Virtual, with some luck you'll come in posession of a braincell one of these days, albeit I doubt you'd know what to do with it.
In the meantime I won't waste time mucking up an otherwise interesting thread.
In the meantime I won't waste time mucking up an otherwise interesting thread.
Blue Steel
Stainless
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2007
- Location
- Adelaide Australia
Sheeze the dumb approximation game. One thou that's 0.025mm chances are the tolerance would end up being 0.02 mm. Five thou tolerance would end up being 0.1 mm or four thou.
Actually where I work our old manual machines are all in imperial but the drawings are always in metric so I am used to swapping it around in my head as I work. It is no big deal really. In fact I do notice that the cross slides on our lathes and slides on the mills here all, perhaps because they are Japanese machines, give you 200 thou for a turn. Typically on an Imperial machine you would have 1/4 inch or 250 thou. Five millimetres on the other hand comes out pretty close to 200 thou well 0.19685039 actually so obviously they needed a different thread and so on but did it so it was similar to a metric one?
Stephen
Actually where I work our old manual machines are all in imperial but the drawings are always in metric so I am used to swapping it around in my head as I work. It is no big deal really. In fact I do notice that the cross slides on our lathes and slides on the mills here all, perhaps because they are Japanese machines, give you 200 thou for a turn. Typically on an Imperial machine you would have 1/4 inch or 250 thou. Five millimetres on the other hand comes out pretty close to 200 thou well 0.19685039 actually so obviously they needed a different thread and so on but did it so it was similar to a metric one?
Stephen
Norman Atkinson
Titanium
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2005
- Location
- TYNE AND WEAR, ENGLAND
The last 50 years
Surprisingly, Spanish and I am talking of Castillian and Catalan are two excellent languages!
People seem to forget that Barcelona is one of the homes of VW and produce cars under the name of SEAT.SEAT was a company dating right into the beginings of motor vehicle manufacture.It is the survivor of many other companies.
Bilboa was the port from which much of Europe got its iron ore.There are still huge enterprises which relate to food production.
Surprisingly, I own a Spanish home and the one thing that Spain and America suffer from is bullshit. Spain makes it into an industry whilst Americans seem to talk it.
Buenos Noches
Don Norman- and yes, I actually am a don
Surprisingly, Spanish and I am talking of Castillian and Catalan are two excellent languages!
People seem to forget that Barcelona is one of the homes of VW and produce cars under the name of SEAT.SEAT was a company dating right into the beginings of motor vehicle manufacture.It is the survivor of many other companies.
Bilboa was the port from which much of Europe got its iron ore.There are still huge enterprises which relate to food production.
Surprisingly, I own a Spanish home and the one thing that Spain and America suffer from is bullshit. Spain makes it into an industry whilst Americans seem to talk it.
Buenos Noches
Don Norman- and yes, I actually am a don
Richard Rogers
Titanium
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Location
- Bentley, Louisiana
I can work with both systems. I think knowing the Imperial system first is like knowing how to drive a car with manual transmission before going to automatic. My brother hates fractions. I love them. I would have hell doing away with "boad feet", being that I grew up around the lumber inudstry. Also, it's strange, but I can recognize a metric thread and bolt size more quickly than I can an Imperial sized one! Go figure!
In my whole lifetime, I have never cut a metric thread on a lathe. Just never had to. Still, my latest lathe I got just "had" to have metric cutting capabilities!
Someone tell me about metric thread dials on lathes, please........I've read on the subject before, but I'm a bit burnt out today to get into digging up any new things to think much about.
Richard
In my whole lifetime, I have never cut a metric thread on a lathe. Just never had to. Still, my latest lathe I got just "had" to have metric cutting capabilities!
Someone tell me about metric thread dials on lathes, please........I've read on the subject before, but I'm a bit burnt out today to get into digging up any new things to think much about.
Richard
metlmunchr
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2004
- Location
- Asheville NC USA
I'd imagine more US companies than most of us realize have become much more 'metric' over the last 20 or so years. Obviously, complete metrification of an industrialized country certainly isn't a cheap or easy thing to do, and it can't (won't) happen overnight, as is easily confirmed by our Brit and Aussie friends here.
In some ways, the conversion would be simpler today than it would've been 30 or 40 years ago. I doubt any of us here own a single CNC machine that's inch-only. Push a button on the panel to change the default measurement system, or add a G word to change it for a specific program. Because such a great majority of machined parts today are cnc-made, we're at an advantage as compared to all manual shops of the past where every dimension on every print would've required conversion, and a single metric thread could've stopped lathe production dead in its tracks.
One of the more difficult aspects in our business involves dealing with metric parts made from inch dimensioned stock. We're definitely not going to just wake up one Monday morning and find all the mills now have 12x50 flat stock available instead of 1/2x2. At Michelin we dealt with inch-dimension stock in an all metric company every day, and if its approached sensibly, its not a big problem at all. "Sensible" means you have designers who have enough common sense to know you can substitute 3" round for 75mm on a shaft with 60mm bearing seats on its ends, and you don't need to take 1.2mm off the stock size on that other 4 feet of stock between the ends that's doing nothing but spinning in air. It means the designer realizes those 4 M10 tapped holes on a 75mm square pattern don't know whether they're sitting on 10x150 flat stock or 3/8x6 flat.
Working with what's available is nothing new in our trade. Its a matter of using your head to come up with workable and economical solutions. If we NEED a piece of plate to be .700 thick for some particular application, we start with 3/4 and mill or grind it to what we need. We don't start searching for a mill that'll roll us some .700" stock. OTOH, if we're looking at a fab drawing for a machine frame and the designer has spec'd 2 15/16 square tubing, we're likely going to ask if 3" will work, or else let him know he'd better start looking for a couple extra truckloads of dollars to get his frame made.
Economically manufacturable designs start with a knowledge of what's readily available, and add a minimum of labor to that material to create the finished product, regardless of whether the end result is Imperial or metric. If the designer is incapable of creating a metric product without having a full array of metric stock at his disposal, chances are his inch-dimensioned masterpieces of design ain't nothing to write home about either.
The desirability of creating foreign markets for your product would seem to be the most likely driver for conversion to metric. Getting the government involved would likely be one of the worst things that could happen, based on observing the results of their involvement in most anything else they decide to mess with. The idea that we'll just continue as is and the rest of the world can take it or leave it is obsolete from an export standpoint, mainly because we ain't the only dog in the show anymore.
Imagine a company in Germany has narrowed down the choice of some new machine to two candidates. One is US made and the other Italian. All their current machinery is European or Japanese. Both are about the same price, and the US one has the reputation of being the best and most reliable by some small margin. But, the US made machine brings the added baggage of needing to supply the maintenance department with $30K worth of inch-size tools that'll be necessary to maintain this machine, and useless on anything else in the plant. Chances are, simplicity of standardization and overall lower first cost will outweigh some rumored operational superiority, and the US manufacturer loses the sale to the Italians. OTOH, if the US machine was metric, and was indeed superior to the competition, the sale would be a relatively easy one at the same price point, and likely doable even if the price was a bit higher than the Italian machine. People are generally much more willing to pay a premium for perceived quality and reliability than they are to pay the same premium for extraneous support equipment because a machine is non-standard as compared to their other equipment.
For the most part, we're used to working on both metric and imperial equipment, and don't give much thought to one over the other. That doesn't mean the rest of the world is just dying to have the same mixed up mish-mash of overloaded toolboxes and stockrooms that many American companies deal with on a daily basis in supporting equipment from domestic and foreign origin.
In regard to Hu's theory on the Imperial gallon.... Likely true, and there's a parallel in the liquor industry in the States. Used to be, you could buy either a pint or a fifth. A fifth being a fifth of a gallon, or 4/5 of a quart. When the liquor industry went metric, you'd sorta think the fifth woul've been resized up to a litre, but it wasn't. Instead, it was downsized to 750ml. Predictably, "bottle engineering" made the visual difference between the 750ml and the fifth containers nearly imperceptible, and I didn't ever hear anything about a price decrease asociated with the volume decrease. No doubt the margins are real tight in liquor manufacturing, and most of them used that little windfall to keep themselves afloat
In some ways, the conversion would be simpler today than it would've been 30 or 40 years ago. I doubt any of us here own a single CNC machine that's inch-only. Push a button on the panel to change the default measurement system, or add a G word to change it for a specific program. Because such a great majority of machined parts today are cnc-made, we're at an advantage as compared to all manual shops of the past where every dimension on every print would've required conversion, and a single metric thread could've stopped lathe production dead in its tracks.
One of the more difficult aspects in our business involves dealing with metric parts made from inch dimensioned stock. We're definitely not going to just wake up one Monday morning and find all the mills now have 12x50 flat stock available instead of 1/2x2. At Michelin we dealt with inch-dimension stock in an all metric company every day, and if its approached sensibly, its not a big problem at all. "Sensible" means you have designers who have enough common sense to know you can substitute 3" round for 75mm on a shaft with 60mm bearing seats on its ends, and you don't need to take 1.2mm off the stock size on that other 4 feet of stock between the ends that's doing nothing but spinning in air. It means the designer realizes those 4 M10 tapped holes on a 75mm square pattern don't know whether they're sitting on 10x150 flat stock or 3/8x6 flat.
Working with what's available is nothing new in our trade. Its a matter of using your head to come up with workable and economical solutions. If we NEED a piece of plate to be .700 thick for some particular application, we start with 3/4 and mill or grind it to what we need. We don't start searching for a mill that'll roll us some .700" stock. OTOH, if we're looking at a fab drawing for a machine frame and the designer has spec'd 2 15/16 square tubing, we're likely going to ask if 3" will work, or else let him know he'd better start looking for a couple extra truckloads of dollars to get his frame made.
Economically manufacturable designs start with a knowledge of what's readily available, and add a minimum of labor to that material to create the finished product, regardless of whether the end result is Imperial or metric. If the designer is incapable of creating a metric product without having a full array of metric stock at his disposal, chances are his inch-dimensioned masterpieces of design ain't nothing to write home about either.
The desirability of creating foreign markets for your product would seem to be the most likely driver for conversion to metric. Getting the government involved would likely be one of the worst things that could happen, based on observing the results of their involvement in most anything else they decide to mess with. The idea that we'll just continue as is and the rest of the world can take it or leave it is obsolete from an export standpoint, mainly because we ain't the only dog in the show anymore.
Imagine a company in Germany has narrowed down the choice of some new machine to two candidates. One is US made and the other Italian. All their current machinery is European or Japanese. Both are about the same price, and the US one has the reputation of being the best and most reliable by some small margin. But, the US made machine brings the added baggage of needing to supply the maintenance department with $30K worth of inch-size tools that'll be necessary to maintain this machine, and useless on anything else in the plant. Chances are, simplicity of standardization and overall lower first cost will outweigh some rumored operational superiority, and the US manufacturer loses the sale to the Italians. OTOH, if the US machine was metric, and was indeed superior to the competition, the sale would be a relatively easy one at the same price point, and likely doable even if the price was a bit higher than the Italian machine. People are generally much more willing to pay a premium for perceived quality and reliability than they are to pay the same premium for extraneous support equipment because a machine is non-standard as compared to their other equipment.
For the most part, we're used to working on both metric and imperial equipment, and don't give much thought to one over the other. That doesn't mean the rest of the world is just dying to have the same mixed up mish-mash of overloaded toolboxes and stockrooms that many American companies deal with on a daily basis in supporting equipment from domestic and foreign origin.
In regard to Hu's theory on the Imperial gallon.... Likely true, and there's a parallel in the liquor industry in the States. Used to be, you could buy either a pint or a fifth. A fifth being a fifth of a gallon, or 4/5 of a quart. When the liquor industry went metric, you'd sorta think the fifth woul've been resized up to a litre, but it wasn't. Instead, it was downsized to 750ml. Predictably, "bottle engineering" made the visual difference between the 750ml and the fifth containers nearly imperceptible, and I didn't ever hear anything about a price decrease asociated with the volume decrease. No doubt the margins are real tight in liquor manufacturing, and most of them used that little windfall to keep themselves afloat
metlmunchr
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2004
- Location
- Asheville NC USA
Virtual Machinist,
You obviously don't pick up on hints too well, so I'll be more direct. I deleted most of the rest of your posts in this thread earlier this evening because they added absolutely nothing to an otherwise interesting and beneficial thread. I assumed you might get the idea that your rants and personal attacks are neither amusing nor welcome without me saying so here in the forum. I guess that's what I get for assuming.
FWIW, my actions have nothing to do with whether or not a change to the metric system is justifiable, or even smart. It has everything to do with your general inclination to stir something up on a regular basis, and to toss wise-ass remarks at anyone who happens to disagree with you. No one's here to "kiss your ass" as you recommended in your first post, nor are they here to waste time reading about your theories that the metric system is just a system of approximate measure. Lose the attitude and post factual information, and chances are anyone who disagrees with you will do so respectfully.
You obviously don't pick up on hints too well, so I'll be more direct. I deleted most of the rest of your posts in this thread earlier this evening because they added absolutely nothing to an otherwise interesting and beneficial thread. I assumed you might get the idea that your rants and personal attacks are neither amusing nor welcome without me saying so here in the forum. I guess that's what I get for assuming.
FWIW, my actions have nothing to do with whether or not a change to the metric system is justifiable, or even smart. It has everything to do with your general inclination to stir something up on a regular basis, and to toss wise-ass remarks at anyone who happens to disagree with you. No one's here to "kiss your ass" as you recommended in your first post, nor are they here to waste time reading about your theories that the metric system is just a system of approximate measure. Lose the attitude and post factual information, and chances are anyone who disagrees with you will do so respectfully.
juergenwt
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2008
- Location
- Wheaton, IL.
To all responding to -"The last 50 years".
Thank you.
I would like to throw in a few things.
Nr. 1 - I said to change as fast as possible. Some parts of our economy will take longer than others. But if we do not set deadlines or if we set deadlines ten years out, these sectors will just wait to the last possible minute and than lobby for an extension. If we set a reasonable deadline we must make sure all understand - there will be no extension.
This is where England is having all its problems.Just about all countries in Europe changed their currency overnight to the Euro. Even the Italy who never had to work with a decimal point.
Nr. 2 - Cost. Everybody thinks that a change-over will cost a lot of money. WRONG!
GM found it cost 1% of the original estimate. Once you start to change you will start to save by taking advantage of the much more streamlined and regulated way the metric system together with ISO provides for you in the manufacturing process.
You will also be able to take a look at other places in the world and open up to export your product. Come on guys - the country needs you.
Nr. 3 - Conversions. Only one thing needs to be said: DO NOT CONVERT!!!
If you start converting you will be nickeled and dimed to death. Period!
Nr. 4 - for all the people worried about what to call the inchworm or the football field -they do play in Australia and Canada,
don't worry - it will be there and yes , you can still have your pint of brew.
As for me , I will now go to my favorite bar and ask the bartender (or owner) how many
12 oz glasses of beer he can get out of a 1/2 barrel that is commonly used! That should be interesting. Try it!
O God!! All the bartenders giving away free drinks will hate me for this and so will their friends.You can also try this with wine.
And pls. do not forget to ask how he knows how much to charge.
PS.: there are 50 liters in a standard barrel of import and that is 100 - 1/2 liter glasses.
But than again it may be nice to have all this various sizes and measurement -kind of fun to live with but so hard to compete in this world.
juergewt
Thank you.
I would like to throw in a few things.
Nr. 1 - I said to change as fast as possible. Some parts of our economy will take longer than others. But if we do not set deadlines or if we set deadlines ten years out, these sectors will just wait to the last possible minute and than lobby for an extension. If we set a reasonable deadline we must make sure all understand - there will be no extension.
This is where England is having all its problems.Just about all countries in Europe changed their currency overnight to the Euro. Even the Italy who never had to work with a decimal point.
Nr. 2 - Cost. Everybody thinks that a change-over will cost a lot of money. WRONG!
GM found it cost 1% of the original estimate. Once you start to change you will start to save by taking advantage of the much more streamlined and regulated way the metric system together with ISO provides for you in the manufacturing process.
You will also be able to take a look at other places in the world and open up to export your product. Come on guys - the country needs you.
Nr. 3 - Conversions. Only one thing needs to be said: DO NOT CONVERT!!!
If you start converting you will be nickeled and dimed to death. Period!
Nr. 4 - for all the people worried about what to call the inchworm or the football field -they do play in Australia and Canada,
don't worry - it will be there and yes , you can still have your pint of brew.
As for me , I will now go to my favorite bar and ask the bartender (or owner) how many
12 oz glasses of beer he can get out of a 1/2 barrel that is commonly used! That should be interesting. Try it!
O God!! All the bartenders giving away free drinks will hate me for this and so will their friends.You can also try this with wine.
And pls. do not forget to ask how he knows how much to charge.
PS.: there are 50 liters in a standard barrel of import and that is 100 - 1/2 liter glasses.
But than again it may be nice to have all this various sizes and measurement -kind of fun to live with but so hard to compete in this world.
juergewt
Norman Atkinson
Titanium
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2005
- Location
- TYNE AND WEAR, ENGLAND
50 years on
Au contraire, Herr Juggernaught! England and I think that you mean the UK,is having all its problems??????? What a load of ill informed bullshit.
By deduction, I estimate that you came from the Fatherland when the RAF had finished flying supplies of food and raw materials into a beleagered Berlin when it was sort of stuck between two sides at Cold War with each other. Since then, I feel that you got lost with events. As another ex- machine gunner( Oh, yes), I went into Europe.
Looking at UK PLC, the surprising statistic is that one in Five of us have second homes.Most of which are in Europe or in the Whoopy Cushion of Florida. It does mean that one in five of the UK is perfectly capable of not only converting and handling Euros and dollars on a holiday visit basis but on a business one. You can forget the metrication idea, we have not only the ability to handle 'funny money' but the ability to earn enough to finance our investments abroad.
I live like so many of us in a multi cultural society and in a multicultural area. i might have come from leaving school at 14 and from a depressed slum but I have like so many others prospered. Whatever you read about the financial problems in the UK, they come from the US because we were daft enough support wars which are clearly crippling the US economy. We still have homes abroad and luxury cars and homes despite collapses in buying into the US debt situation.
Yesterday, it is the start of the Chinese New Year. Do you realise that more luxury cars are sold in China than anywhere else. In November last, I was in HongKong at a University 'do' which is not bad for an ill educated peasant but I noticed that there were more s Class Mercedes Benz in HK than there are in Germany. OK, I am in Stuttgart annually and I run 2 pretty decent Mercs and a BMW Mini but I simply could not keep up.
Brother Juggernaut, you and the rest of the US have lost the plot!
Grus Gott
Norman
Au contraire, Herr Juggernaught! England and I think that you mean the UK,is having all its problems??????? What a load of ill informed bullshit.
By deduction, I estimate that you came from the Fatherland when the RAF had finished flying supplies of food and raw materials into a beleagered Berlin when it was sort of stuck between two sides at Cold War with each other. Since then, I feel that you got lost with events. As another ex- machine gunner( Oh, yes), I went into Europe.
Looking at UK PLC, the surprising statistic is that one in Five of us have second homes.Most of which are in Europe or in the Whoopy Cushion of Florida. It does mean that one in five of the UK is perfectly capable of not only converting and handling Euros and dollars on a holiday visit basis but on a business one. You can forget the metrication idea, we have not only the ability to handle 'funny money' but the ability to earn enough to finance our investments abroad.
I live like so many of us in a multi cultural society and in a multicultural area. i might have come from leaving school at 14 and from a depressed slum but I have like so many others prospered. Whatever you read about the financial problems in the UK, they come from the US because we were daft enough support wars which are clearly crippling the US economy. We still have homes abroad and luxury cars and homes despite collapses in buying into the US debt situation.
Yesterday, it is the start of the Chinese New Year. Do you realise that more luxury cars are sold in China than anywhere else. In November last, I was in HongKong at a University 'do' which is not bad for an ill educated peasant but I noticed that there were more s Class Mercedes Benz in HK than there are in Germany. OK, I am in Stuttgart annually and I run 2 pretty decent Mercs and a BMW Mini but I simply could not keep up.
Brother Juggernaut, you and the rest of the US have lost the plot!
Grus Gott
Norman
Blue Steel
Stainless
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2007
- Location
- Adelaide Australia
metric or not means nothing. No money in going either way. I do think it is a good idea to be able to do it in either as there are lots of customers in places that use one but not the other. We all want more customers.
Stephen
Stephen
Wow, what a STUPID arguement, metric vs imperial???
Come on guys, is this REALLY going to be debated AGAIN?!?! Wow, I thought most people in this day and age had a reasonable grip on BOTH systems. I've worked in BOTH units before, and it's not that hard to convert between IF you're willing to accept the wonderful invention called the CALCULATOR!!! Most DIGITAL measuring devices have buttons to automatically convert between the two standards, and if you have machines made in a part of the world with it's head OUTSIDE it's anus, they have BOTH scales on the dials. I don't understand why there is such a HUGE resistance to unify the standards just to eliminate unnecessary confusion. I really don't get it, the ONLY thing I find confusing is having BOTH systems in existance, and having to determine what exactly you're dealing with! If it's like a LOT of stuff made in the past 25 years, it has BOTH systems involved in it's manufacture. THAT is CONFUSING AS HELL!! I'm for making up your mind, one way or the other. Majority rules, GO METRIC!!! While imperial stuff will still have it's place, I'd really like to see a unified standard so that IN THE FUTURE things will be more convenient.
The ONLY thing I do see an advantage of imperial in is threads. Metric threads are kinda confusing, but that's MAINLY because I've not been dealing with them for the most part. I'd rather have ALL one or the other though, so seen as how the REST OF HE WORLD had gone metric, it's time the good old USA pulled it's head out into the sunshine, and made the change. It's just plain a PITA to have both systems and have to move between them.
Come on guys, is this REALLY going to be debated AGAIN?!?! Wow, I thought most people in this day and age had a reasonable grip on BOTH systems. I've worked in BOTH units before, and it's not that hard to convert between IF you're willing to accept the wonderful invention called the CALCULATOR!!! Most DIGITAL measuring devices have buttons to automatically convert between the two standards, and if you have machines made in a part of the world with it's head OUTSIDE it's anus, they have BOTH scales on the dials. I don't understand why there is such a HUGE resistance to unify the standards just to eliminate unnecessary confusion. I really don't get it, the ONLY thing I find confusing is having BOTH systems in existance, and having to determine what exactly you're dealing with! If it's like a LOT of stuff made in the past 25 years, it has BOTH systems involved in it's manufacture. THAT is CONFUSING AS HELL!! I'm for making up your mind, one way or the other. Majority rules, GO METRIC!!! While imperial stuff will still have it's place, I'd really like to see a unified standard so that IN THE FUTURE things will be more convenient.
The ONLY thing I do see an advantage of imperial in is threads. Metric threads are kinda confusing, but that's MAINLY because I've not been dealing with them for the most part. I'd rather have ALL one or the other though, so seen as how the REST OF HE WORLD had gone metric, it's time the good old USA pulled it's head out into the sunshine, and made the change. It's just plain a PITA to have both systems and have to move between them.
Norman Atkinson
Titanium
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2005
- Location
- TYNE AND WEAR, ENGLAND
50 years on
Nope, Junkyard, metrication is not a PITA nor is Imperial.
A lot of years ago, I was hungry enough to steal food. I was in uniform and one of my mates was down to 90 lbs. I purposely sat next to one of the Jewish lads in the hope of a bit of bacon.When you are hungry, you have no food fads! Tough on me but I never forgot the lesson.
If you have a job regardless of how rotten it is, you have a job and a crust to eat.
25 years ago, I stopped worrying about work as well. 6 years ago, my wife and I survived death for the second time. I'm hanging on to Guardian Angels and I don't care a damn what language they speak or what faith or whether their shrouds are in yards or metres.
I have my priorities right. The only thing that I cannot get my head around is immortality.
On that, I don't care to discuss here.
Nope, Junkyard, metrication is not a PITA nor is Imperial.
A lot of years ago, I was hungry enough to steal food. I was in uniform and one of my mates was down to 90 lbs. I purposely sat next to one of the Jewish lads in the hope of a bit of bacon.When you are hungry, you have no food fads! Tough on me but I never forgot the lesson.
If you have a job regardless of how rotten it is, you have a job and a crust to eat.
25 years ago, I stopped worrying about work as well. 6 years ago, my wife and I survived death for the second time. I'm hanging on to Guardian Angels and I don't care a damn what language they speak or what faith or whether their shrouds are in yards or metres.
I have my priorities right. The only thing that I cannot get my head around is immortality.
On that, I don't care to discuss here.
Heres my 2 euro-cents
While it is a pita to have to use both systems, any competent machinist should be able to read a metric or imperial drawing, and then machine said part, then get the correct measuring device and inspect said part
The only thing that annoys me about the metric-imperial thing is when the office boys decide to convert all the dims on a drawing from one to another
M1.181" * 0.079" thread anyone?
Especially when you've done the job before from the original metric drawing, and the CNC program/setup notes are all in metric
Boris
beege
Stainless
- Joined
- May 18, 2007
- Location
- Massachusetts
This all very funny. Measurements are all arbitrary, but agreed upon by those that relate to them. Furlongs, leagues, light years... I bet the Battlestar Gallactica people had their own, too. Even their time was metric. Centons?
So the question is, does it make sense to move a significant portion of the planet's population to use one system or another? Or is it better to understand what the difference is?
I think that any people that want the world language to be English would be tossing out cultures that make life beautiful and different. And THERE'S a scenario that won't happen ever...
So the question is, does it make sense to move a significant portion of the planet's population to use one system or another? Or is it better to understand what the difference is?
I think that any people that want the world language to be English would be tossing out cultures that make life beautiful and different. And THERE'S a scenario that won't happen ever...
Hansdie
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
For the inch lovers quickly arrange these drills in order from smallest to largest without looking at a drill chart.
B
#79
5/64”
.005”
7/32”
#3
15/64”
#91
Now I will have my 10 year old niece do the same with metric drills without referring to a chart
0.70mm
0.13mm
5.55mm
4.15mm
6.20mm
2.05mm
Who do you think can do it faster? Is it because a 10 year old is smarter?
B
#79
5/64”
.005”
7/32”
#3
15/64”
#91
Now I will have my 10 year old niece do the same with metric drills without referring to a chart
0.70mm
0.13mm
5.55mm
4.15mm
6.20mm
2.05mm
Who do you think can do it faster? Is it because a 10 year old is smarter?
SlicerMan
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2007
- Location
- New Hampshire USA
Gov't trained
Juergen, you have some good points but,
"....training programs under supervision of the US Government..." just won't work anymore.
I know alot of guys reading this have had gov't. or military training in machining but I think
industry practices are more diverse and change faster today than 40 or 50 years ago. Around here there is a growing modern mfg. company that has an apprentice program that is funded by the state but I'm sure it's not "supervised" by gov't. College & Universities are a good example of "Government training". Millions of graduates and many of them are in useless subjects. Many engineering/high tech positions are unfilled for lack of talent.
Think about it: A government employee telling kids going to work in industry what they need to know. Ain't going to happen.
SM
Juergen, you have some good points but,
"....training programs under supervision of the US Government..." just won't work anymore.
I know alot of guys reading this have had gov't. or military training in machining but I think
industry practices are more diverse and change faster today than 40 or 50 years ago. Around here there is a growing modern mfg. company that has an apprentice program that is funded by the state but I'm sure it's not "supervised" by gov't. College & Universities are a good example of "Government training". Millions of graduates and many of them are in useless subjects. Many engineering/high tech positions are unfilled for lack of talent.
Think about it: A government employee telling kids going to work in industry what they need to know. Ain't going to happen.
SM
juergenwt
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2008
- Location
- Wheaton, IL.
from Juergenwt
Thank you SlicerMan for your input.
I was not promoting an over the shoulder look by our government. Industry and government must work together in setting up a subsidized training program.
Obviously nobody can set up a program for every segment of our industry (I am talking about metal working only). What we need are categorized fields of training with set down guide lines and requirements that must be followed before a tax credit can be given to this provider. This is to make sure we have a certified group of trained people available to choose from.
Otherwise each company would use these tax breaks to train just for their own use and if the company should close down, these people would have a hard time finding another job. This would be using tax money to help just one company.
What I am looking for is a government program administered by private Industry , with tax breaks for the company providing the training if they produce a product ( machinist) possessing a required level of knowledge,
certified by independent testing.
This program must be constantly reviewed and updated to keep up with our advancing technology.
Remember the old days when you needed a journeyman's certificate. Something like that but updated for todays needs.
"On the job" training works some times - if you have good and dedicated trainers, but because of no verification and no formal plan one can only assume certain basic requirements to be there when hiring a person for a skilled position.
As we all know - in our business most mistakes contributing to failure are the small mistakes made by somebody we thought knew his job.
I am sure there are some programs available on a small scale but I am talking about something nationwide and recognized everywhere.
Food for thought! Juergen
dvideo
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- Joined
- Dec 21, 2002
- Location
- Richardson TX / Dana Point CA
Don't do....
Do not... as I can attest...
Be drinking your Diet Pepsi when starting to read Norman's posts. You might profusely choke and laugh at the same time. It wastes the Diet Pepsi and takes some time to clean the LCD Screen.
--jerry
Do not... as I can attest...
Be drinking your Diet Pepsi when starting to read Norman's posts. You might profusely choke and laugh at the same time. It wastes the Diet Pepsi and takes some time to clean the LCD Screen.
--jerry
juergenwt
Stainless
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2008
- Location
- Wheaton, IL.
Jim -I like what you are saying about our politicians and you are right!
You are also right about some of our manufacturing being metric most of all the larger companies. But what about all the smaller manufacturers who could be exporting and are not pursuing the opportunity because they are afraid of the cost of working in metric What I am also talking about is the everyday job being done by a machinist or - and this is where it hurts - in the tool room.
Machining operations can be programed in inch or metric - no problem. The problem occurs when the product is designed. Most designers or engineers can not think in metric. Make a test and you will find one thing - 95% think imperial dim's and than convert. That is quite naturally if you are living in an imperial environment. Go into a tool room or a machine repair shop and you will find everybody using inch indicators and inch steel sizes. Even if the product manufactured is metric.
Metric steel is now available but people are not familiar with the sizes. Most indicators or micrometers can be switched to metric (you may have to buy a metric indicator for yourself and a set of MM gage blocks for the shop), but take a look and see if the machinist is using this feature. Most likely not. If you try to change this habit, it will be like walking into a rubber wall - you keep bouncing off. The very first person you must convert to metric is the CEO.
Jim - if we do not have a skilled work force that has a complete understanding of for instance ISO tolerances, as can be seen by reading this forum, we will not be able to take full advantage of the metric system. Sure we can manufacture in metric but until we have our skilled people thinking in metric it will be an undertaking that stands on clay feet.
This is where we need our schools to change to all metric and for the media to stop dumbing down America by changing all reports like weather, science or space related and others to imperial. The metric system is so easy to understand but these people think that Americans are not capable of learning if given a chance. Again you must start with the CEO.
Ps.: you know what makes me real mad is - if I find another 5/16-18 bolt jammed into a M8 tapped hole.
So long for today - juergen.
One of the minor ironies is that China, and to a lesser extent Taiwan and
Japan don't seem to have any problems making imperial stuff for shipment
to the US, and metric stuff to send to all the rationalists elsewhere.
Just like Ford, GM and Chrysler had no problems (at least ones they were
public about) doing the metric shift 15-20yrs ago.
Japan don't seem to have any problems making imperial stuff for shipment
to the US, and metric stuff to send to all the rationalists elsewhere.
Just like Ford, GM and Chrysler had no problems (at least ones they were
public about) doing the metric shift 15-20yrs ago.
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