Vintage micrometer patent differences

[JROC]

Anyone know of somewhere to find the differences between any given manufacturers patents on their older mics? B&S in particular is hard to tell the difference in. With Starrett and Lufkin, etc it's a little easier to visually tell a difference in their old patents.

For example what's the difference between B&S No. 8 and No. 10 mics? Both are 0-1" mics. The frame, spindle/anvil locking nut, thimble, etc look to be the same. I believe that either mic can be had either with or without a ratchet.?.?

I've been on a vintage mic buying bing for the last few weeks and am trying to understand some of the differences in the different patents that look to be the same. Generally one will have carbide tips or a ratchet where the other similar model doesn't, but sometimes it's not too apparent. This seemed kind of the same with Lufkin depth mics. I couldn't see much difference visually between the 513 and the 514, but the 515 seemed to be noticeable if I remember correctly from when I was looking at them. IDK trying to collect old mics that I in no way need has become a interesting hobby for me, even though I've been in the trade for almost 20 years and have long since bought all the measuring tools I need to do my job, other than replacing dial calipers ever few years as they wear out.

 

[spaeth]

JROC,
According to B&S Catalog No.27 from 1916 the difference between
the No.8 and No.10 is easy to see. The #8 reads in .001 increments
where as the #10 has a Vernier scale which reads in .0001. Every other feature is the same on both models.
spaeth

 

[L Vanice]

Anyone know of somewhere to find the differences between any given manufacturers patents on their older mics? B&S in particular is hard to tell the difference in. With Starrett and Lufkin, etc it's a little easier to visually tell a difference in their old patents.

For example what's the difference between B&S No. 8 and No. 10 mics? Both are 0-1" mics. The frame, spindle/anvil locking nut, thimble, etc look to be the same. I believe that either mic can be had either with or without a ratchet.?.?

I've been on a vintage mic buying bing for the last few weeks and am trying to understand some of the differences in the different patents that look to be the same. Generally one will have carbide tips or a ratchet where the other similar model doesn't, but sometimes it's not too apparent. This seemed kind of the same with Lufkin depth mics. I couldn't see much difference visually between the 513 and the 514, but the 515 seemed to be noticeable if I remember correctly from when I was looking at them. IDK trying to collect old mics that I in no way need has become a interesting hobby for me, even though I've been in the trade for almost 20 years and have long since bought all the measuring tools I need to do my job, other than replacing dial calipers ever few years as they wear out.

If I substitute the word "models" where you wrote "patents," your question makes better sense.

The manufacturers' catalogs are the best place to look for differences in models, as mentioned in the 2nd reply.

Looking up old patents on Google Patents or similar search engines is interesting, but will not give you differences between different models.

Larry

 

[JROC]

Thanks! Now that you mention it and I looked that is the difference. I have some No. 10's, but looking at some # 8's on Ebay I couldn't see a difference. They do have the mic ends closed on themselves, but admittedly I didn't think to look for that either. I was looking at some # 19's and they look the same as my # 10's, but I don't think the # 19's had a locking nut like the # 10's.

 

[JROC]

If I substitute the word "models" where you wrote "patents," your question makes better sense.

The manufacturers' catalogs are the best place to look for differences in models, as mentioned in the 2nd reply.

Looking up old patents on Google Patents or similar search engines is interesting, but will not give you differences between different models.

Larry

That makes sense. Patent was likely the wrong term to use. I'm guessing that everytime B&S introduced a new tool that they would call it the next # up? Like if I look up B&S # 18 I get a V-block, whereas B&S # 19 is another 0-1" mic.

I was thinking it was similar to what people claim that Glock does. The narrative being that a Glock 17 is the first Glock patent that came to market, but their 17th patent, but I'm guessing it's just the first patented gun that Glock put on the market as every model # after 17 has been put on the market as a Glock firearm model. IDK for sure though, and it's just my assumption.

 

[L Vanice]

Brown & Sharpe liked numbers for model designations of their products and sometimes added a letter or two to show variations. But, for machine tools, the numbers represent relative size, so a 00 is relatively tiny, a 0 is a little bigger, a 1 is bigger yet, and so on. But the number does not tell the type of machine. You have to say number 2 surface grinder or number 2 screw machine and so on.

The numbers for precision tool models probably represent the order in which they were designed. The number 2 micrometer looks like a modernized version of their first pocket sheet metal gage, circa 1868. You mentioned a number 8 micrometer. Did B&S make any other precision tools called number 8? I am not aware of any, but I cannot say if they did or not.

Larry

 

[JROC]

Brown & Sharpe liked numbers for model designations of their products and sometimes added a letter or two to show variations. But, for machine tools, the numbers represent relative size, so a 00 is relatively tiny, a 0 is a little bigger, a 1 is bigger yet, and so on. But the number does not tell the type of machine. You have to say number 2 surface grinder or number 2 screw machine and so on.

The numbers for precision tool models probably represent the order in which they were designed. The number 2 micrometer looks like a modernized version of their first pocket sheet metal gage, circa 1868. You mentioned a number 8 micrometer. Did B&S make any other precision tools called number 8? I am not aware of any, but I cannot say if they did or not.

Larry

IDK, a lot of manufacturers have confusing ways of naming a product. You'll think you have it figured out, but then something contradicts it.

Winchester for example had the Model 1894, and the Model 1912 which later changed to the Model 94 and Model 12. These #'s were based off the years those models where first released, but then you have the Winchester Model 70, which I believe was introduced in 1936, so that contradicts the belief that Winchester names all their models of firearms based off their introduction years.

Lol, IDK I'm just trying to figure out all the things that differentiate the classic precision tool manufacturers products.

 

[spaeth]

JROC,
A later B&S catalog No.141 from 1939 shows the models 8 and 10 with some additional options. First both were available to read in English or Metric. Then they offered a RS, S and SRS. RS indicated
having a Ratchet Stop. S was made of Stainless Steel and SRS was
both Ratchet Stop and Stainless Steel. Those were only catalog designations, the actual tool was marked either 10 or 10S and you ordered model RS if you wanted the ratchet stop. The older catalog
does not show the RS, S, SRS options.

 

[JROC]

JROC,
A later B&S catalog No.141 from 1939 shows the models 8 and 10 with some additional options. First both were available to read in English or Metric. Then they offered a RS, S and SRS. RS indicated
having a Ratchet Stop. S was made of Stainless Steel and SRS was
both Ratchet Stop and Stainless Steel. Those were only catalog designations, the actual tool was marked either 10 or 10S and you ordered model RS if you wanted the ratchet stop. The older catalog
does not show the RS, S, SRS options.

Okay, thanks!

I saw some #10S mics on Ebay that were commanding more than the regular #10 mics and I was wondering what the S meant and how it differentiated them. Likely explains why they looked so new, fresh and clean with no surface rust staining the knurls or anything like you see with most older mics.

 

[spaeth]

JROC,
There is a B&S Small Tools Catalog No.30 from 1926 on e-bay
right now for 16.00. Good Reference as Larry said. Same as the ones I quoted from only a different year. I don't think they printed cat's every year. The older you want the more they cost. I'm not an avid mic collector but I have a nice bunch of Goodell-Pratt stuff,
including this nice 1" mic.

 

[JROC]

JROC,
There is a B&S Small Tools Catalog No.30 from 1926 on e-bay
right now for 16.00. Good Reference as Larry said. Same as the ones I quoted from only a different year. I don't think they printed cat's every year. The older you want the more they cost. I'm not an avid mic collector but I have a nice bunch of Goodell-Pratt stuff,
including this nice 1" mic.
View attachment 388876View attachment 388877View attachment 388878

Thanks!

That is a very nice mic. These newer mics just don't have quite the sex appeal (for lack of a better term) as an older micrometer that's still in good shape, hasn't been abused, and does it's job of reading correct numbers.

I'm back at the job I started at as an apprentice in March of 2004, and worked at until March of 2013, and I got these in the mail yesterday. I'm going to give them to one of the Toolmakers who helped me learn the trade. He was always willing to help me when I was struggling along to learn the trade, and has even sacrificing some of his tools in the process if helping me. Just a thank you to should him that I appreciate the help he's given me in the process of becoming a Die Builder throughout the years. He's kind of oldschool, and like me appreciates older tools.

 

[rivett608]

I can assure you that collecting micrometers can be an interesting hobby, it certainly has been for me for the last 40+ years. I have about 300, mostly all made before 1920. Have fun!

Model number is the correct term, the patent thing is a mess to figure out. Most of the patents were used for all sorts of micrometers and many of the most prominent features were never patented such as the decimal equivalents stamped on the frame.

 

[JROC]

I can assure you that collecting micrometers can be an interesting hobby, it certainly has been for me for the last 40+ years. I have about 300, mostly all made before 1920. Have fun!

Model number is the correct term, the patent thing is a mess to figure out. Most of the patents were used for all sorts of micrometers and many of the most prominent features were never patented such as the decimal equivalents stamped on the frame.

That sounds really cool!

What's the best way you know of to get the build years off them? Sometimes it comes on a certification, but usually not from what I've seen. I bought a brand new/old stock Scherr Tumico 5-6" mic that's dated for 03/57, also a new in the box NSK 0-1" mic dated for 09/68. Otherwise most certification cards neglect to date the them from what I've gotten. Do you find that well maintained/not abused/fresh mics that pre-date the 1920's to be as accurate as say a post WWII mic?

I bought some mauser 0-1 outside mics and a depth mic with the 0-1" rod that I'd love to get a rough timeframe on.

I tell you what I've got some Swiss made B&S 0-1's at in my tool box that I've had for 15+ years, and they're nice mics with a very smooth turning screw, but these old American made B&S seem to turn every bit as nice as the Swiss mics that people boast about. I'm impressed with the old B&S # 10 that came. Most older mics I've used aren't this smooth and tight. The previous owner did a good job of taking care of them and not wearing them out, but maybe they weren't that used. I also have one those old B&S 0-1's with the clear plastic on the thimble that you look through at your #'s. That thing is a POS. I picked it up years ago because I thought it looked cool, or maybe unique is a better term. That may be all the B&S mics I have, but IDK.

I find that you have too be careful buying new/old stock Lufkin mics as the cosmoline on them dries up and they get stuck, and if you try forcing them to turn that the thimble will turn will the spindle remains stuck. Luckily Lufkin mics are very easy to reset. I've had this happen to two Lufkins. Here's the last one in a bag with some WD40 in it to try and get the cosmoline to loosen up.