VMC Purchase Input (sub $100k budget)

[seahuston]

Hi Everyone,

I'd love to get some feedback on an upcoming VMC purchase. I've read many many threads on PM on the topic but have a few specific questions for my scenario.

Shop Profile
Single person shop, I've been fortunate to grow business with my Omniturn lathe and Tormach 770. I'm moving to new space and looking for a new mill, the Tormach has been very limiting (obviously). I have 10 years working in/around CNC manufacturing. My primary customers are hardware start ups with tight prototype schedule requests.

Current Part Profile
80% aluminum, 10% stainless, 10% random others (copper, delrin, plastics, titanium)
90% fit in a 6" vise
Volumes per job are mainly less than 50x
Many features require ~1/4" end mill

Machines Considered
Used VF2SS in the $60k range
Very lightly used DT-2 from previously employer, 15k spindle, $60k range
New machine, potentially SVM 4100 or VF2SS ($80-$90K, would require some financing)

Key Questions
I'm tempted by what I think is a good deal on the DT-2, especially to get a 15k spindle for smaller tools but worried about; 30 taper (not dual contact), max bed weight (250lb), and long nose-to-table. Am I being too cautious?
It seems like there are decent condition machines in the 60k range with an approximate 20-30k savings off new. I would pay for a 3rd party inspection to try and reduce risk. How much of that risk can be mitigated with inspection? I'm within 2hrs of my HFO in case of repairs.
Is a 15k 30 taper spindle an upgrade vs a 12k 40 taper? That's 20% faster feeds anywhere that I'm RPM limited with the 12k.
Given the used budget, what is the large value in stepping up to a new machine+financing?

Comments
I know that Haas machines have their limitations but I'm familiar with the control and as a solo operator, the online resources are very valuable. Given the surfacing and HSM toolpaths I like to run, I would enable the high-speed-machining option.
I'm comfortable and familiar with Fanuc so not scared on machines with that option.
Brothers often get recommended here but I think they are a little out of budget and/or don't resolve some of the concerns I have around 30 taper

Appreciate any and all feedback, it's really helpful seeing how other shops have approached these decisions.

 

[MwTech Inc]

First of all, We finally get someone with good English skills and a clear presentation of the questions.
Kudos to you Sir

I have only purchased used machines. My requirements do not justify new.
If you see your business growing and your profit is good, unless you find a truly nice machine, buy new.
Only other thing I would add is: don't buy a machine that only fits what you are doing now, unless you are positive you won't need it.(corrected this below)

 

[Vancbiker]

…..Only other thing I would add is: don't buy a machine that only fits what you are doing now, unless you are positive you won't need it.

IMO, odd advice. Unless one has a plan to broaden the scope of abilities they offer in a specific direction it is not possible to make a good purchase decision. If one is looking to add capacity for what they do now the best machine that fits the current work would be the choice.

In my case, I have a 30 taper machine and a 40 taper machine. I run 10 jobs on the 30 taper to 1 job on the 40 taper. It’s the nature of what I choose to make. I got the 40 taper at a super good deal so it’s ok if it sits, but as a first choice for adding capacity another 30 taper would be a better fit.

 

[SteveEx30]

Given 90% of your work fits in a 6" vice, I would not worry about a 30 taper machine. I would also not worry about a Haas, even though many people here have negative to say.

There is nothing wrong with buying a used machine.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Only other thing I would add is: don't buy a machine that only fits what you are doing now, unless you are positive you won't need it.

LOL..that didn't come out right Try again....
If OP only does small widgets then a fast, small machine is perfect.
But, if there is a chance his part size will grow, then consider a larger machine, you may give up a few seconds per part but now your not limited..
Spend $??K now for small fast, and a short time later a "big" part comes in and you don't have the travel.....

 

[Clive603]

Further to the comments from MwTechInc and Vancbiker it's often illuminating to turn the question round from "what can the machine do" what can't it do". When you are on your own with no suitably knowledgable help to discuss things with on site it's surprisingly easy to miss some stuff that really ought to be obvious. Whether completely or not factoring in the implications. How do I know?

Having decided on what your requirements for current and anticipated work are and identified suitable candidate machines pick something sensibly more upmarket and more capable to use as reference. List out what it can do over and above the capabilities of the candidate machines. Sometimes you get a surprise when the process shakes loose an "oops, forgot about that" (as it did for me) other time it will just clarify what limitations your choice will have on any different work you may wish to undertake. Obviously you have to be reasonable about the reference machine. Naturally the reference has to be in the aspirational if I had a bit more money/space/power et al class not an all singing all dancing wizz bang 5 axis with a 6 figure price tag.

Don't be surprised if you conclude that it might be preferable from business development point of view to either save up a bit longer for the more capable machine. Or to treat the one you are about to buy as a stepping stone rather than a keeper for several years.

Clive

 

[alliancefab]

New machine, potentially SVM 4100 or VF2SS ($80-$90K, would require some financing)

I bought a SVM4100 in Feb. and I've had it running for 2 months now and its sitting right next to a vf2. Don't get me wrong I like the VF2 and my ST10 but for what I paid for the SVM I wont be buying another Haas again.
The SVM is a rock solid machine, I am extremely happy with it. Its much more machine than the price I paid for it.
local service and support should be a big factor in the decision.

 

[Vancbiker]

If one is planning to add capability, then looking at a larger machine may be the right direction if the plan is to look for larger workpieces. I would not advise that however on the chance that an RFQ might come in for a larger part. That game is never ending as there are projects of all sizes that might show up to quote.

 

[MwTech Inc]

If one is planning to add capability, then looking at a larger machine may be the right direction if the plan is to look for larger workpieces. I would not advise that however on the chance that an RFQ might come in for a larger part. That game is never ending as there are projects of all sizes that might show up to quote

Totally agree, I just put that out there so the OP might review where he is going with all this.

 

[SteveEx30]

If one is planning to add capability, then looking at a larger machine may be the right direction if the plan is to look for larger workpieces.

OP says he has a Tormach, so just about any machine he buys will be a larger, faster machine that will add Capabilities

 

[mmurray70]

Great to have a 40x20 machine starting out if you can fit it. Even if 90% of your parts are way smaller you can loose big opportunities and customers by being limited in size.

You can add faster smaller machines later.

 

[Vancbiker]

Great to have a 40x20 machine starting out if you can fit it. Even if 90% of your parts are way smaller you can loose big opportunities and customers by being limited in size.

You can add faster smaller machines later.

It would be great if you think you want to pursue work that needs that envelope. If you aren’t looking to do that type work then you end up with a bulkier, slower machine. Bigger parts need more infrastructure. Forklift, floor space or other storage area, hoist or crane maybe. If that’s the direction you want your operation to go then it’s appropriate. Otherwise it’s a poor choice.

 

[SteveEx30]

Yup. Gimme 2 smaller faster machines that take the space of that big 40x20 mill

 

[sirpetr]

I also had Tormach 770, last year bought new Brother S700X2 with 16k spindle and dual contact wihout TSC. As many wrote before, it would be one level higher and more capable machine whatever brand you find.

I like its small footprint and speed, mostly cutting aluminum. Only limiting factor is how good you hold your parts, I never get to its power limit apart from drilling 18.5mm drills which I slowed down a bit and it works fine. Maybe Brother is in your budget, I didnt pay more. I choose it over other brands because I read about Brother just positive reviews, wanted high reliability and have their company nearby. I repaired my Tormach few times and didnt want to solve problems with a new machine.

There are some small things that I imagine could be made better but thats same with every machine and I really love it overall.

 

[EmGo]

I know what I would do, but ...

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

As someone who has worked in the Machine Tool business, I can tell you that you should buy the most for the money. A 40 X 20 VMC can make one large part, or, fixtured correctly, many small parts. A bunch of six inch vises or fixtures and - blast off - you've got a dozen parts to one or two on the smaller machine. Spindles are no longer as big a concern as I've seen plenty of mid sized mills with 12k to 20k spindles and HSM capability.

 

[seahuston]

Really great replies. Thanks everyone for the detailed insights and input. Good feedback and appreciate the details in how you've approached it.

I'll try a few direct responses here.

Having decided on what your requirements for current and anticipated work are and identified suitable candidate machines pick something sensibly more upmarket and more capable to use as reference.

I like this advice. I've let my budget/scope creep up into higher end machines and it's illuminating to go back and try to figure out what specific options/improvements would drive a return on investment.

OP says he has a Tormach, so just about any machine he buys will be a larger, faster machine that will add Capabilities

Truth, I honestly can't believe how much I've done on this machine but I am so ready for an increase in capability/convenience

If one is planning to add capability, then looking at a larger machine may be the right direction if the plan is to look for larger workpieces. I would not advise that however on the chance that an RFQ might come in for a larger part. That game is never ending as there are projects of all sizes that might show up to quote

I feel like trying to predict the future is what makes the purchase easy to creep into something bigger/stiffer/etc. So far I don't have any customers that even have assembled products big enough to max out a 30" table. I'm sure they'll release something bigger the day a new machine gets dropped off

The SVM is a rock solid machine, I am extremely happy with it. Its much more machine than the price I paid for it.

Great feedback, they seem like incredible machines and if comparable to Haas pricing, hard to ignore.

 

[seahuston]

A few follow ups since it does seem like a faster 30 taper could be a good fit.

I do a lot of work on the table with fixture plates, pallets, etc. When I've run the DT-2 I found myself constantly having to be aware of my tool lengths and fixture heights to make sure I can reach the part. Long tools seem problematic for projection but adding Z to the table (to me) seems to increase complexity and weight. All drill/tap machines seem to have a similar nose-table (6~8"). How are people managing this?

Specifically around the DT-2, the max table weight lists at 250lbs. When considering a 4th axis down the road, vises, table risers, etc that weight seems really low. Are there any work arounds on that?

Finally, it does seem like a newer era used machine would be a good fit here. Besides onsite inspection and a 3rd part ballbar/evaluation is there anything else I can do to reduce risk?

 

[Finegrain]

A few follow ups since it does seem like a faster 30 taper could be a good fit.

I do a lot of work on the table with fixture plates, pallets, etc. When I've run the DT-2 I found myself constantly having to be aware of my tool lengths and fixture heights to make sure I can reach the part. Long tools seem problematic for projection but adding Z to the table (to me) seems to increase complexity and weight. All drill/tap machines seem to have a similar nose-table (6~8"). How are people managing this?

Specifically around the DT-2, the max table weight lists at 250lbs. When considering a 4th axis down the road, vises, table risers, etc that weight seems really low. Are there any work arounds on that?

I use 2 vises for, well, 100% of the work I've done in my 2016 Brother Speedio S700. The only tool length issue I've had is doing a deep 2nd op pocket, reaching down below the 2nd op vise jaw tops with short-projection tools. This happens on <5% of parts, and then I just use a longer projection toolholder.

Speedio table rating is, I think, 500#. Lots of Speedio users are running 4th axis and subtables.

If I was doing a lot of on-the-table jobs, I would install a thick subplate before I went to longer tools. Long tools (endmills that is) in a 30-taper are bad news.

Regards.

Mike

 

[Vancbiker]

As someone who has worked in the Machine Tool business, I can tell you that you should buy the most for the money. A 40 X 20 VMC can make one large part, or, fixtured correctly, many small parts. A bunch of six inch vises or fixtures and - blast off - you've got a dozen parts to one or two on the smaller machine. Spindles are no longer as big a concern as I've seen plenty of mid sized mills with 12k to 20k spindles and HSM capability.

Since the OP has neither large parts nor high volumes, the above advice just saddles him with a poor choice of machine. As a former machine tool industry employee did you miss out on the part about listening to the potential customer’s needs???