VMC Purchase Input (sub $100k budget)

[merouane]

get the svm 4100, I'm not a machinist and never ran any cnc machine but heck do I know a lot, I've read tons of threads about how to choose a machine here on PM forum, from the basic needs to how they are testing the accuracy of their machines and how they commission them, which types of ballscrews and nuts the machine has, what servo motors what encoders does it have, temperature sensors for thermal compensation, how good is their temperature control algorithme, did they do a lot of research to really understand the thermal variation of the geometry of the machine, what bearings are in the spindle, how many, circulated oil cooling for the spindle or grease packed bearings, does the machine have scales so when the ball screw goes hot and the pitch gets bigger it doesn't affect the precision of the machine bcz it is relyin on the scale and not the amount of rotation to determine the distance, do the scales have temperature sensors to compensate for their own thermal deviation, you know hermle, everyone knows that hermle are of excelent quality, well one shop bought a hermle C42 with a 18k spindle and they have been roughing mold cores in another machine and they did the finishing on the hermle so the machine was basically running 24/7 at 18k rpm well they consumed the spindle before the guarantee, service came in and replaced the spindle free of charge because it was within warranty, but the spindle which hermle made it themselves wasn't faulty, it's just that the fact it was a grease packed spidle and not oil cooled that when running for a long period the grease gets thrown away towards the outer diameter inside the spindle and isn't lubricating the bearings anymore so they fail, with time they consumed two spindles and the tech told them to run the machine for 4 hours and make it stop for 15 minutes so the grease can fall back and lubricate the bearings, and don't let me get started on the machine bed geometry c frame bridge type gantry type ram type the pros and cons of each one, I heard a lot of people talking and have a lot of knowledge not getting cocky here as I said I never ran a machine in my life so this is what it is and I'm telling you get the svm, it's a far superior machine you don't need the speed of a sppedio you need the rigidity and space of an svm it has dual contact 40 taper spindle and 30x16 table travel with a 36x16.1 table dimensions a 7.5 spindle with 12000 rpm and a superior rigidity compared to the brother and haas, plus the reliability of a fanuc control servo and drives, and did I menison it has 30 tools ATC man I'de get that over anything similar on the market, check titans of cnc youtube channel they brought an svm 4100 and made test cts with it on aluminum, but if you want to save a buck check the syil brand they have epoxy granite bed and a lot of spindle options just type "nerdly" on youtube he had a tormach and bought a syil bcz the tormach didn't do what he wanted it to do, and check syil's website they offer online instant quote so it'll take a minute or two to get a ballparck price, well those are my two cents take them with a grain of salt as I said I never ran a machine before and I am a humble willing to learn person so correct if anything I said is wrong.

EDIT : here is a thread about the svm 4100 here on PM

DN Solutions SVM 4100

Good Afternoon, Just curious if anyone has any experience with the new Doosan SVM 4100? What are the differences between the SVM and DNM, besides weight/rigidity? Looking for a machine to mainly cut aluminum parts fast and feel that the SVM might be a good fit but I also am looking for a quality...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[MwTech Inc]

a 7.5 spindle with 12000 rpm and

Per web site....assume a typo...lol
SPINDLE

Speed	12,000 rpm
Power	18.5 kW (25 hp)
Torque	95.5 nm (70.5 ft-lbs.)

 

[LOTT]

get the svm 4100, I'm not a machinist and never ran any cnc machine but heck do I know a lot, I've read tons of threads about how to choose a machine here on PM forum, from the basic needs to how they are testing the accuracy of their machines and how they commission them, which types of ballscrews and nuts the machine has, what servo motors what encoders does it have, temperature sensors for thermal compensation, how good is their temperature control algorithme, did they do a lot of research to really understand the thermal variation of the geometry of the machine, what bearings are in the spindle, how many, circulated oil cooling for the spindle or grease packed bearings, does the machine have scales so when the ball screw goes hot and the pitch gets bigger it doesn't affect the precision of the machine bcz it is relyin on the scale and not the amount of rotation to determine the distance, do the scales have temperature sensors to compensate for their own thermal deviation, you know hermle, everyone knows that hermle are of excelent quality, well one shop bought a hermle C42 with a 18k spindle and they have been roughing mold cores in another machine and they did the finishing on the hermle so the machine was basically running 24/7 at 18k rpm well they consumed the spindle before the guarantee, service came in and replaced the spindle free of charge because it was within warranty, but the spindle which hermle made it themselves wasn't faulty, it's just that the fact it was a grease packed spidle and not oil cooled that when running for a long period the grease gets thrown away towards the outer diameter inside the spindle and isn't lubricating the bearings anymore so they fail, with time they consumed two spindles and the tech told them to run the machine for 4 hours and make it stop for 15 minutes so the grease can fall back and lubricate the bearings, and don't let me get started on the machine bed geometry c frame bridge type gantry type ram type the pros and cons of each one, I heard a lot of people talking and have a lot of knowledge not getting cocky here as I said I never ran a machine in my life so this is what it is and I'm telling you get the svm, it's a far superior machine you don't need the speed of a sppedio you need the rigidity and space of an svm it has dual contact 40 taper spindle and 30x16 table travel with a 36x16.1 table dimensions a 7.5 spindle with 12000 rpm and a superior rigidity compared to the brother and haas, plus the reliability of a fanuc control servo and drives, and did I menison it has 30 tools ATC man I'de get that over anything similar on the market, check titans of cnc youtube channel they brought an svm 4100 and made test cts with it on aluminum, but if you want to save a buck check the syil brand they have epoxy granite bed and a lot of spindle options just type "nerdly" on youtube he had a tormach and bought a syil bcz the tormach didn't do what he wanted it to do, and check syil's website they offer online instant quote so it'll take a minute or two to get a ballparck price, well those are my two cents take them with a grain of salt as I said I never ran a machine before and I am a humble willing to learn person so correct if anything I said is wrong.

EDIT : here is a thread about the svm 4100 here on PM

Is this a troll account? Is a regular member behind this?

 

[EmGo]

Is this a troll account? Is a regular member behind this?

Has to be CarbideBob .... hit all the high points, made me laugh

 

[CarbideBob]

EmGo.
It not me. Why would you think this?

 

[EmGo]

EmGo.
It not me. Why would you think this?

Because it was clever, hit all the high points with a satiric sense of humour, knew all the weaknesses of this place thoroughly ... not you, hunh ? Then who else could be a suspect ? I'd almost say standardparts but it's a little too gentle for him

 

[merouane]

Is this a troll account? Is a regular member behind this?

HaHaHa ROFL I take that as a compliment no not a troll account totaly normal member been obsesed by machining since high school we had machanic course where we studied technical drawings, tolerances and mechanical solutions like bolts, screws, nuts, keyways, retaining, rings, gears, bearings, ...etc.
than we started learning how to make metallic parts using machines like lathes mills manual stuff only with presentations having youtube videos I never saw one in front of me at that time the only tool I used was a corded drill to drill holes in a wall never knew angle grinders exists hhhhhhh than one day a friend of mine who's uncle owns a machine shop manual stuff and cnc where they made mold stuff, we were chatting with our teacher and told me to just type cnc on youtube and I'll ton of machning and damn when I got home and did that, you remember the first time u watched porn heart pounding knees shaking weak legs hand never still same shit only family were around the first video I clicked was a machining compilation where and the part that stood out was a alzmetal 5 axis machine that shredded that steel part damn those rapids and acc\dec I watched that 4 times and it was mesmerizing and since than the journey started having no resource to learn but the internet I live in algeria so the industry isn't as evolved as other parts of the world didn't understand most of the terms looking for prices to see how much a dream machine shop will cost me looking for details about machines only to make my imagination feel more realistic and satisfying since I don't have enough capital and work here in algeria don't justify the purchase of high end cnc machines, they treat DN solutions like hermle here hhhhhhhh and 5 axis is practically non existant I only know one shop who has two machines like that and they are old doosans anyway definetly not trying to troll and sorry if u get that vibe english isn't my first language and our cultures are different.
back to the subject per website the spindle is 7.5 hp continuous and 25 hp burst or 5.5 kw continuous and 18.5 kw burst you can push a motor triple it's continuous rating the trick is for how long and what is the recovery time so that you won't damage the electrical wiring and pushing a spindle hard respecting the continuous rating won't damage the motor at all but it will hurt the bearings and they are the common failure point so keep that in mind it cheap for a reason they had to cut costs somewhere so u need to know about them and keep them in consideration, and you better watch out for chip management coolant tank leakage coolant pumps what is the rating u need to put everything under the microscope even controller memory and the workflow of feeding a program in they had an msrp of 80k on their website I remember it being 70k when first launched negotiate pricing you'll be surprised what could come from it free training, free shipping and rigging who knows, doosan is known for standardizing a lot of options to make production cheaper and that's why you see a well optioned machine competitevly priced but anyway man any other machine from a tormach is light years ahead even a haas but just saying svm 4100 seems the best bang for the buck here is a brochure of theirs couldn't find it on their website

https://www.dormaccncsolutions.nl/images/brochures/doosan/freesbanken/SVM%204100.pdf

 

[MwTech Inc]

spindle is 7.5 hp continuous and 25 hp burst or 5.5 kw continuous and 18.5 kw burst

You are correct......I went back and looked and it depends which website you select as to how the spindle is rated.........weird

 

[Clive603]

Looking back at the original request from the OP he says 90% of his work will fit in a 6" vice.

Given that I wonder if it might be worth investigating one of the small "2nd Op" (allegedly) portable machines, such as this ProtoTrack VMC2 https://www.southwesternindustries.com/products/vertical-machining-centers/vmc2 .

Tool changer capacity is a bit limited and control appears slightly lobotomised but relatively less costly than a full on VMC and way easier to install. Presumably similar devices can be found from other folk.

Always seemed to me that these are effectively the next step up from a Tormach. Think such machines could be rather productive if some sort of "pallet" system using a grid of tapped holes or similar plate so the next job could be set-up on the bench whilst the machine is busy. As the plate (pallet) would be relatively small it's not going to be silly hard to handle. Especially if you use a direct to table mounting set up rather than a vice for work holding.

Clive

 

[EmGo]

With a hundred grand to spend I could find a nice used v33i makino with a pallet changer. Pretty sure that'd kick a tormach's ass.

 

[merouane]

or two okuma mv560

With a hundred grand to spend I could find a nice used v33i makino with a pallet changer. Pretty sure that'd kick a tormach's ass.

 

[LOTT]

Given that I wonder if it might be worth investigating one of the small "2nd Op" (allegedly) portable machines, such as this ProtoTrack VMC2 https://www.southwesternindustries.com/products/vertical-machining-centers/vmc2 .

The cost to capability ratio of those is very poor. Unless you are working out of a shipping container at some remote mining site I don't see how those make sense to anyone.

 

[LOTT]

HaHaHa ROFL I take that as a compliment no not a troll account totaly normal member been obsesed by machining since high school we had machanic course where we studied technical drawings, tolerances and mechanical solutions like bolts, screws, nuts, keyways, retaining, rings, gears, bearings, ...etc.
than we started learning how to make metallic parts using machines like lathes mills manual stuff only with presentations having youtube videos I never saw one in front of me at that time the only tool I used was a corded drill to drill holes in a wall never knew angle grinders exists hhhhhhh than one day a friend of mine who's uncle owns a machine shop manual stuff and cnc where they made mold stuff, we were chatting with our teacher and told me to just type cnc on youtube and I'll ton of machning and damn when I got home and did that, you remember the first time u watched porn heart pounding knees shaking weak legs hand never still same shit only family were around the first video I clicked was a machining compilation where and the part that stood out was a alzmetal 5 axis machine that shredded that steel part damn those rapids and acc\dec I watched that 4 times and it was mesmerizing and since than the journey started having no resource to learn but the internet I live in algeria so the industry isn't as evolved as other parts of the world didn't understand most of the terms looking for prices to see how much a dream machine shop will cost me looking for details about machines only to make my imagination feel more realistic and satisfying since I don't have enough capital and work here in algeria don't justify the purchase of high end cnc machines, they treat DN solutions like hermle here hhhhhhhh and 5 axis is practically non existant I only know one shop who has two machines like that and they are old doosans anyway definetly not trying to troll and sorry if u get that vibe english isn't my first language and our cultures are different.
back to the subject per website the spindle is 7.5 hp continuous and 25 hp burst or 5.5 kw continuous and 18.5 kw burst you can push a motor triple it's continuous rating the trick is for how long and what is the recovery time so that you won't damage the electrical wiring and pushing a spindle hard respecting the continuous rating won't damage the motor at all but it will hurt the bearings and they are the common failure point so keep that in mind it cheap for a reason they had to cut costs somewhere so u need to know about them and keep them in consideration, and you better watch out for chip management coolant tank leakage coolant pumps what is the rating u need to put everything under the microscope even controller memory and the workflow of feeding a program in they had an msrp of 80k on their website I remember it being 70k when first launched negotiate pricing you'll be surprised what could come from it free training, free shipping and rigging who knows, doosan is known for standardizing a lot of options to make production cheaper and that's why you see a well optioned machine competitevly priced but anyway man any other machine from a tormach is light years ahead even a haas but just saying svm 4100 seems the best bang for the buck here is a brochure of theirs couldn't find it on their website

https://www.dormaccncsolutions.nl/images/brochures/doosan/freesbanken/SVM%204100.pdf

Capital letters, periods, and paragraph spacing are all free...

 

[Clive603]

The cost to capability ratio of those is very poor. Unless you are working out of a shipping container at some remote mining site I don't see how those make sense to anyone.

SWI have been selling them for the best part of 10 years and have recently upgraded the control so there must be some sort of market.

Hard to judge the price / performance / capability ratios as prices don't generally seem to be published. Which is silly for a machine that is basically touted as being as easy to install (and, presumably, use if you have basic CNC driver skills) as a big drill press. XYZ, who were then largely just the UK arm of SWI, said sub £25,000 UK price in 2014. So probably around half a HASS mini price wise. Then. Perhaps three or four fully kitted Tormach now, I dunno.

Objectively poor price / performance / capability ratio is an inevitable hazard at the lower end of the market. Whether size-wise, cost wise or both. At any step there is a certain minimum to get anything reasonably useful. The extra incremental costs to get a bit more capability, and then another bit more et al being relatively small until you get to the point that going up another step is the sensible option. Which is always a significant change. Best value for general purposes always seems to be around the middle of the step subject to shifting either way to best fit what you do.

When spending your own money its cost to do your type of work that matters. Half the cost getting only quarter the capability of an objectively better general purpose machine is still a win when that quarter capability is enough. Boat anchor time if you needed one third of the capability tho'.

Realistically SWI seem to significantly over-price based on what they tout as the advantages of the Proto-Trak controls. Which made a lot more sense back when entry level CNC meant converted Bridgeport and manual machine driver. Today, when half the world seems to have access to Fusion360, I'd guess something like 1/4 to 1/3 rd less for that iron with a mainstream control would be far more sensible.

But for a lone worker doing prototype and short run stuff it's essential to get a good handle on set-up times. Hate to futz around in that baby enclosure. Bench set-up with interchangeable fixture plates giving similar accessibility to my Bridgeport is the only way I could tolerate one. But 10 off is really, really long run for me.

Clive

 

[LOTT]

SWI have been selling them for the best part of 10 years and have recently upgraded the control so there must be some sort of market.

Hard to judge the price / performance / capability ratios as prices don't generally seem to be published. Which is silly for a machine that is basically touted as being as easy to install (and, presumably, use if you have basic CNC driver skills) as a big drill press. XYZ, who were then largely just the UK arm of SWI, said sub £25,000 UK price in 2014. So probably around half a HASS mini price wise. Then. Perhaps three or four fully kitted Tormach now, I dunno.

It's been a while, bit I think the price I heard was low $30s at a time the Haas Mini was $37k base. It was close enough that I couldn't see any point, at the time I was upgrading from a CNC knee mill and looking for the next step.

When it comes to absolute lowest cost viable machine for the garage startup I think Syil may take the lead. Their entry machine (and the only one that makes any sense) is about $20k. Maybe a third the cost of a base Haas or Brother? Personally I would (and did) go used at that budget, but could see it being a reasonable machine for some.

 

[mhajicek]

SWI have been selling them for the best part of 10 years and have recently upgraded the control so there must be some sort of market.

I looked into those when I was starting up. Almost the cost of a starter Haas, and much less capable. Fewer tools, slower spindle, slower feeds, very few options available.

 

[Beauvais]

SWI have been selling them for the best part of 10 years and have recently upgraded the control so there must be some sort of market.

Hard to judge the price / performance / capability ratios as prices don't generally seem to be published. Which is silly for a machine that is basically touted as being as easy to install (and, presumably, use if you have basic CNC driver skills) as a big drill press. XYZ, who were then largely just the UK arm of SWI, said sub £25,000 UK price in 2014. So probably around half a HASS mini price wise. Then. Perhaps three or four fully kitted Tormach now, I dunno.

Objectively poor price / performance / capability ratio is an inevitable hazard at the lower end of the market. Whether size-wise, cost wise or both. At any step there is a certain minimum to get anything reasonably useful. The extra incremental costs to get a bit more capability, and then another bit more et al being relatively small until you get to the point that going up another step is the sensible option. Which is always a significant change. Best value for general purposes always seems to be around the middle of the step subject to shifting either way to best fit what you do.

When spending your own money its cost to do your type of work that matters. Half the cost getting only quarter the capability of an objectively better general purpose machine is still a win when that quarter capability is enough. Boat anchor time if you needed one third of the capability tho'.

Realistically SWI seem to significantly over-price based on what they tout as the advantages of the Proto-Trak controls. Which made a lot more sense back when entry level CNC meant converted Bridgeport and manual machine driver. Today, when half the world seems to have access to Fusion360, I'd guess something like 1/4 to 1/3 rd less for that iron with a mainstream control would be far more sensible.

But for a lone worker doing prototype and short run stuff it's essential to get a good handle on set-up times. Hate to futz around in that baby enclosure. Bench set-up with interchangeable fixture plates giving similar accessibility to my Bridgeport is the only way I could tolerate one. But 10 off is really, really long run for me.

Clive

They are a similar price to a tm-0p now, circa £38k +vat with features/delivery. If I was stuck in a single uk style garage I would probably go with a syil.

 

[Clive603]

They are a similar price to a tm-0p now, circa £38k +vat with features/delivery. If I was stuck in a single uk style garage I would probably go with a syil.

Silly price. £30 k installed would be absolute tops for UK via XYZ. Assuming you can live with, or need, the semi-lobotomised control. Thats putting a fair premium on XYZ service & support. Which by all accounts is more than decent.

Syil spec and price fairly well but, allegedly, support sucks. Also reports of quality issues. How much of that is "small firm" problems when not enough people and financ to go round I know not.

Realistically something like that starts getting properly interesting at around £25 k equivalent with a mainstream control and 16 - 20 tools in the changer. Especially if it's optimised for pallet style external job set up. Slow doesn't matter so much then provided its finished what its doing before you have the next load set up.

Clive

 

[LOTT]

Syil spec and price fairly well but, allegedly, support sucks. Also reports of quality issues. How much of that is "small firm" problems when not enough people and fiancé to go round I know not.

Yeah, I think their "support" is a forum. Which is my first line of defense in general, but a backstop of trained people is nice.

 

[EmGo]

Syil spec and price fairly well but, allegedly, support sucks.

All they do is resell existing machines without offering anything beyond a website. And they don't even sell the nicer ones.

Buy direct. There's some decent stuff if you can do most of your own maintenance. And airplanes fly around the world, parts from Osaka and parts from Zhuzhou take the same amount of time to arrive.