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Way OT Ebola

metlmunchr

Diamond
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Location
Asheville NC USA
The hospital started out with face masks alone, then plastic face shields, then positive pressure regulators.
Obviously, the nurses were not to blame- the hospital administrators were.

I noticed pics on the news showing the nurses with what appeared to be an operating room mask and a face shield. About the level of protection one might use to keep grinding dust out of their eyes and nose. Seemed strange to me.

If you run a body shop and have an employee spraying any sort of catalyzed paint containing isocyanates without a complete paint suit including a hood with external air supply, that would be a serious violation under OSHA with a presumptive fine starting at $25,000. Isocyanates can mess you up, or even kill you if you happen to be hypersensitive, but they sure as hell don't carry a 50%+ mortality rate.

While I agree 100% with the regs concerning paint spraying, it seems as though a lot of Washington's rule making is directed at trades where they offhandedly assume everyone is dumb and willing to compromise employee safety, while at the same time they blindly assume the medical field is populated with brilliant folks who'd always have employee safety as their top priority. From my own observations of things that make the news, a lot of big hospitals are run by the same sort of self serving toads who run the worst of big corporations where they'd cut any corner possible to feather their own nest or add a few more digits to their annual bonus.
 

5 axis Fidia guy

Stainless
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Location
Wisconsin
Also, note that of the 48 people exposed before Mr. Duncan was admitted to the hospital, NONE have come down with ebola. This is not some new, super version that jumps from body to body, its containable with proper procedures. Frankly, if it had been normal flu, most likely some of those 48 people would have gotten it.

This is true, but we have to also keep in mind that Ebola so far has around a 70% kill rate, (the last I read), that is not something to take too lightly.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Manchester, England
Anybody else think the West as a whole has taken this issue much too lightly ? I can't believe the stories emerging over here regarding the way the US has dealt with the outbreak so far. Can it really be true that one of the nurses treating the original patient actually caught an airline flight later ? It's unbelievable that somebody in that situation could be so stupid !

Regards Tyrone.
 

jim rozen

Diamond
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Location
peekskill, NY
" stunning that one can be a leader yet be so clueless."

Not really. I maintain that the american political arena actually selects for sub-standard science
smarts. Putting it another way: if you're scientifically educated, there's a good chance you never
went into politics, or if you did, you weren't very successful.

Looking at it this way, I'd say that the general population is overall MORE scientifically educated
that politicians.

It's not really a very savory thought.

My favorite example was the late William Proxmire. He offered the "golden fleece" award to
government money being spent on outlandish worthless projects.

He awarded one to an NSF grant given as he put it "to study the sex life of snails."

Ohh, wasted taxpayer money, right?

Snails vector a disease that's responsible for millions being blinded every year in developing
countries. Interrupt the reproduction of the vector, and you stop the disease. All
proxmire could understand was "sex life."

He was too dumb to even pronounce Schistosomiasis. But he was politician enough to get
their grant cut off. Thanks asshole. Glad he's dead.
 

Ries

Diamond
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Location
Edison Washington USA
This is true, but we have to also keep in mind that Ebola so far has around a 70% kill rate, (the last I read), that is not something to take too lightly.

actually, the fatality rate has been running at 50% (still horrifyingly high, but well below 70%) in Africa.
But, to put that in perspective- the conditions there are primitive.
There are only 50 doctors, TOTAL, in all of Liberia, to serve 4 million people.

fatality rates in the US would most likely be much lower- many of these people are just being locked up in huts and left to die.
IVs, for example, are almost nonexistent in many of the local clinics. Much less drugs to put in them.
 

Ziggy2

Stainless
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Location
Northern Il
We are in way over our heads.

Even though the virus appears to be presently only transmitted through direct contact with body fluids, we are being naive with how consistent the medical system and humans are with the protocols. The second infected nurse is an excellent example. She ended up traveling on an airplane with a fever. So now we have a 100 plus passengers that need to be tracked but we also will have to track the passengers that were on the plane immediately after the nurses flight. How well do you think the airline cleaned the plane on turn around? Would you want to fly on that plane before it was properly disinfected? I would not.

We have the issue of the waste streams which nobody pays much attention too. It used to be common that all health care facilities had incinerators for disposing of human waste, soiled materials, and general bio-hazard type materials that were disposable. Due to EPA regulations and the fact that the incinerators were frequently not well maintained, they have almost all been eliminated. Bio-hazard waste is now disposed of at approved incineration facilities. Sometimes this material ends up in the landfill due to mishandling and protocol breeches. The contaminated waste must be handled and transported which exponentially increases the chances of mishap and exposure.

The other major waste stream is the hospitals sanitation system. A proper level IV containment would incinerate or irradiate all off the waste streams including the waste from sinks, showers, and toilets. Hospitals which are built to local and national plumbing codes are not required to have a method of disinfecting the sewerage discharge into the municipalities waste water system. The problem is that the architects, engineers, and contractors do not make design considerations with the input of experts in the field of communicable diseases.

Why I raise these points is that the fortress wall is only as strong as the smallest unguarded door. We do what we do very well, however ebola is a third world disease that we have zero experience with outside of the laboratory here in the west. The third world health care facilities, as crude and spartan as they are, are actually very well suited to helping in the containment of a virus such as ebola in the third world setting. We like to use high density energy efficient buildings that substantially increases the probability for a virus to survive and or be transferred to another host. Our hospitals are not anywhere close to as sanitary and clean as we think they are.

My final concern is that because of the way we do health care, the system will rapidly become overwhelmed if the number of infected individuals gets much greater. What the issue is is that with patient zero, we used at least 70 health care givers for his immediate care givers and this was the number without using all of the proper protocols. All 70 now are at some level of risk and probability of infection. We have at present, two care givers that are infected. The second nurse that just became ill has exposed at least 100+ other individuals. We do not currently know the probability of their infection but past experience would suggest that there will be another 2.5 infected individuals from this nurse alone. If we are going to consume 70 health care givers per patient during a patients treatment, we will rapidly consume our manpower resources in a very short time. Add to this the personal risk and sacrifice that this will require and the added frustration of dealing with an ill prepared bureaucracy and medical establishment, you will have a significant portion of your staff that will chose not work.

We have a situation that is barely containable at present unless we become extremely proactive.
 

allloutmx

Titanium
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Location
Rochester, NY
Nice irrelevant jab. Thanks for playing.

pot meet kettle...

As leader of this country, he should have taken much stronger strides when this outbreak came about... or at least that's how my heavily taxed brain thinks. Thank you for your well thought out response. Please do come again
 

smalltime

Banned
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Location
Kansas City
actually, the fatality rate has been running at 50% (still horrifyingly high, but well below 70%) in Africa.

Oh, Well then SHIT. We have nothing to worry about.

I mean let's let EVERY nurse, orderly and doctor who worked on this guy fly all across the country with a "low level fever". Fuck it, we've nothing to worry about.

How about we send them to Edison Wa. and you all can put them up for about 21 days in your guest room?

I REALLY don't understand this line of thinking. The W.H.O. is predicting 10,000 cases a week by Christmas.

Do you REALLY think ideology will prevail here?
 

SeymourDumore

Diamond
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Location
CT
I mean let's let EVERY nurse, orderly and doctor who worked on this guy fly all across the country with a "low level fever".

Actually Small, that happens to be the scariest part of it all!
I mean we can implement all kinds of procedures, disaster plans and preparations possible, and yet, the stupidity of individuals will
always far exceed anything one can think of. Heck, I bet not even the U.S. Government can outsmart the individual idiot.

Really? You work on and come into direct contact with a KNOWN ebola patient, you know he has just passed away from it
and you know ( well you were told ) that contraction happens (???) when symptoms are already shown.

And yet, you take your pre-planned trip across the country in an aluminum tube, sitting and rubbing elbows for 3+ hours with
100 or more people.
And you are a so called "professional"?
Can anyone explain what kind of TRAINING and INSTRUCTIONS could eliminate something THAT stupid?



fatality rates in the US would most likely be much lower

I'd be interested to hear Ries's proposal to test that theory?
 

PlasmaOnTheBrain

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Location
Albany Ny USA
Why and how have we not shut down travel from africa yet? How is this even an issue?
And please no one even try the spiel about "how can we help if we shut down travel?"; ban travel FROM not TO africa. You can go to provide aid but to get back requires a month of isolation ( or what ever is needed).
Even if the CDC and hospitals pulls their collective Sh*t together and contains the Texas bunch (oh and now the bunch of people in ohio and where ever else anyone from the plane went to....)
What's stopping some jackwagon from showing up and pulling another "duncan"? Thermometers at an airport?????? Really?
And for that matter.... HOW in the many possible hell's did that nurse even leave Texas!!!
 

smalltime

Banned
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Location
Kansas City
Why and how have we not shut down travel from africa yet? How is this even an issue?

Simple, Political correctness rune amok.
To the CDC, it smacks of racism. It's "Africa" you know.

To this line of thinking, I have some questions:

Why, Then are the CDC quarantining the family members in Dallas?
Are ANY of the folks now under quarantine in Dallas Black?
Are they being kept quarantined BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK?

There are no pool reporters that will ask any of these questions.
 

Ries

Diamond
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Location
Edison Washington USA
Currently, there have been 8 cases of Ebola in the USA.
One of them has died. 5 of them are either better, and released, or soon to be released.
The other two are these two nurses.

So, right now, we are at 12.5% Mortality rate.
None of the other 5 cases have caused any secondary infections.

Those are the facts right now.

Of course, that may change.

But people tossing around figures like 70% fatality rate, and giant epidemics in the USA are not being backed up by the reality on the ground over the last 2 months.

Ebola cases in the United States
 

SeymourDumore

Diamond
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Location
CT
Currently, there have been 8 cases of Ebola in the USA.

No, there are only 2 cases of Ebola in the USA.
The primary concern was #3, who contracted it in Liberia, flew home on his own and then promptly infected 2 nurses.

The other 5 all have been infected outside the USA and consequently flown back here under strict quarantine and supervision, specifically
for the purpose of receiving proper treatment.

For all we know, if treated in time, Ebola might be 100% curable.
But we don't know yet, and that isn't exactly the point now is it?

What IS the point however that 1 carrier has managed to infect 2 already. That is a fact.

What is ALSO the fact that on page 1 you wrote this:
edit- Ok, I just read about the nurse in Dallas. The CDC says, and I agree- protocols were violated, for her to get sick. Ebola didnt jump thru her mask- she was sloppy, somehow. But, tellingly, she was far from the only health care worker who treated Mr. Duncan- the rest of them are not sick. So unfortunately, she somehow wasnt vigilant enough.

Couple of things:
1: You were incorrect about Mr Duncan infecting only 1 person. He did in fact infected 2. Care to place bets on how many more times you may or may not be wrong?

2: The 2 people infected were in fact professionals, who were supposed to follow guidelines and procedures.
So what of the hundreds or more people in Dallas FW and Cincinnati airport who have possibly come
in contact with the idiot fly-by nurse, but have absolutely no guidelines and procedures to follow?
 

scadvice

Titanium
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Location
"Stuck in Lodi", Ca
We still have about ten days left to really know how easily this virus may infect the general population. However, keep in mind, we are not a third world country either. In our favor we are generally more healthy, and better fed...stronger overall. We also are able to effect treatment and isolation of the infected way beyond what is happening in West Africa.
 
Joined
May 29, 2010
Location
Denmark
Why and how have we not shut down travel from africa yet? How is this even an issue?
And please no one even try the spiel about "how can we help if we shut down travel?"; ban travel FROM not TO africa. You can go to provide aid but to get back requires a month of isolation ( or what ever is needed).

I'm not sure what some members think when they write "Africa". A few facts.

Africa is a continent with over 50 countries, an area of 11.7 million square miles and a population of over 1,1 billion.

By comparison the USA has an area of 3.7 million square miles and Canada 3.85 million square miles.

How exactly would an "African shutdown" work?

Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 








 
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