Well crap - I am ordering a SawStop tomorrow. (Mildly graphic pictures)

[beckerkumm]

If you are considering a slider, you should also go to www.airtightclamps.com and look at Mac's pneumatic clamps for sliders or shapers. I have about 10 saws ranging from a hammond trim saw to a 10' slider, including several old short stroke machines like the Wadkin PK, Whitney 77, and Robinson ETE. I have a power feeder on a saw for ripping and use Mac's clamps for the larger saws and never need to have fingers near the blade.

The SS ICS is a very decent build and considered a little heavier than a Unisaw or PM 66 type machine. They are limited by the 10" blade size but a good saw. The problem with a non slider is trying to wrestle stock on the table that is easier handled on a slider. The two machines are so different they shouldn't considered for the same job. Dave

 

[richard newman]

The two machines are so different they shouldn't considered for the same job. Dave

Yes, and in the best of worlds one would have both, or better yet 10! But realistically for many smaller shops, pro or hobby, there just isn't enuf budget or real estate to accommodate them. The accessory sliding tables are useful, but really can't compare to a real sliding table that is split right at the blade. I'd prefer to use a boat/sled if the work fits.

I should mention that my saw is an old Delta 12/14, bought used 55 yrs ago, came with a huge add on wooden sliding table, shop built with a kit of metal hardware. Not real accurate, but made cutting sheet goods possible. I worked mostly with solid wood, so it was adequate. And I was never a production shop, one of a kind high end furniture.

My only serious injury was from a veneer press caul (5' x 6" x 8" pine) falling on my thumb and splitting it open. Happened around midnight, when I should have been home. Really ugly, got stitches right thru the nail, lots of scar tissue now. Using machines, I am very aware of safety issues and focus like a hawk. Never imagined getting whacked by a board!

 

[M.B. Naegle]

After I had my kick-back accident a little while back, I bought a guard for our table saw. Not that the guard would have prevented MY accident (that was sheer stupidity, using the wrong tool for a quick task), but I wanted to close up the holes in how safe the saw was before jumping into something entirely new like a saw stop. Our saw is used for ripping boards and squaring up plywood 90% of the time which is maybe once a week, and is there for the occasional odd job or weekend bit. Putting the guard back on included a riving knife and kick-back fingers, but more importantly IMO it was intentionally in the way. It forces you to think about what you are doing and how to work with it, or if you have to take it off for dado or angled cuts, having a now exposed blade (at least for me) commands a little more respect than just getting used to the blade always being there. I don't expect it to stop kick-backs, but it acts like a little stanchion barrier around a hole in the floor. to keep loose pieces and careless hands away from the danger zone. Habit and practice have the biggest effect though.

We have a Hammond Trim saw and it's a treat for little stuff, though it's work area is limited. For us the table saw is one of those tools that gets used so little, yet can't be done without. From a productivity standpoint our big picture involves getting a bigger area made for wood-working where we have space to put a big outfeed table around the table saw, and investing in a panel saw for the plywood jobs. That's waiting on a 5000 sq.ft. warehouse to show up out back.

 

[stephen thomas]

From your description i think an older traditional heavily built slider like a Tannewitz XJS or JDR, Wadkin, Greenlee, Oliver 260D, or other traditional all CI machine that was built for making small complex pieces from solid lumber stock would be your best match. These saws were designed for that process before plywood was a thing.

Modern long stroke sliders take up a lot of real estate and are optimal if you use them mostly for panel products.
(I think that is dumb, too - if you need a panel saw, get a panel saw) IOW, the modern machines are another version of the one machine does it all approach, but is not necessarily optimized for solid wood small parts. All the parts are aluminum. I can say that whenever i've built fixtures to optimize use of my SCMI slide for small solid wood parts, they are steel and CI. It makes a difference.

The traditional sliders tend to max out with strokes around 30" to 36" so they really are not panel saws in the modern sense if you need that capacity.
They also are mostly direct motor drive, so often do not have deep cutting capacity even with 16" blades if that is a factor. If you prefer to carry a part fully past the blade rather than retracting the table as soon as it is severed, 32" travel, say, limits width of a 1" thick board to around 20"

I'd still like an XJS with all the bells and whistles since complex small hardwood parts are (or used to be) a large part of my production.
I think a saw like that or the Oliver 260 D were the pinnacle for small complex hardwood parts other than dedicated set ups with auto cycles.
However, before one ever showed up on my radar, my compromise was a cheap SCMI Si 15. These turn up fairly commonly for less than $1,000 since they are limited for a modern panel shop. OTOH, be sure all the fences, carriage, and stops are there and that it is not beat to death.
These & similar sort of "transitional" Euro saws have strokes around 50" to 60" for cross-cutting panels, but are all CI except the fences.
Being belt driven, a 16" blade on mine with cross cut a 6x6 with some height to spare. 3 speed options (belt ratios) allow blades as small as 8" or similar size dado sets to be effective. The only real drawback is that the sliding table is quite distant from the side of the blade. Traditional sliders and modern panel sliders put the edge of the table right beside the blade, and allow that section to be shifted in or out to accomodate blade thickness or dados. So on my saw, sometimes for small parts, i do end up bolting a sub-table to the sliding table T-slot, that reaches to or past the blade.

smt

 

[Comatose]

Nothing beats a slider for dealing with panels and lots of other stuff. But being fully aware beats all. Cutting any parts in brain dead "automatic mode" will get you. The machine is patiently waiting and will not act at all when you do something stupid. It will just let you do it. Machine has no remorse.

Bullfeathers. Nothing beats a CNC router for dealing with panels. A slider is a poor second, and a sawstop plus a decent used industrial CNC router is still less than the $35k Felder...

 

[Trboatworks]

I have TS PTSD

I am watching some videos on sliders and all I can think is “damn he is running his hand too close to the blade”.

 

[david n]

Dangerous machine...............kick back throwin a thin strip scares me the most. Never stand inline with the blade.

Dad was rippen some oak one time and a 1/4 thick strip got launched across the garage and through the wall. It was pokin' through the siding outside.

And just the other week friend of mine who is a PA in the ER showed me an MRI vid on his phone. I could tell it was a cross section of the pelvis area. A straight white object went right through from front to back. He said it was a piece of wood. Prolly 1/4"x3/4". Went in right above the pubic bone, missed the bladder and intestine and was stopped by the hip................guy was extremely lucky. He said they couldn't fit him into the MRI machine until they found a hand saw to trim off the protruding piece of wood.

 

[Trboatworks]

Ok.
I’m about 90% there to deciding on a European built slider instead of the SawStop.
I may keep the cabinet saw in shop setup with a dado blade.

This Felder in 8’ wagon is currently my choice but I still need to run through the equivalent from SCM.

It’s gonna be a few months to get it sorted but will post an update as I get one of these into the shop and cutting stock.

This Felder in ‘Professional’ kit:

Sliding Table Panel Saw K 500 | Felder

Innovative, tilting saw blade unit and precision double guiding for precise angle and height adjustment, guarantees a new dimension of efficiency.

www.felder-group.com

 

[Bob-J-H]

I used to sell hardwood lumber, I came in contact with a lot of woodworkers. One guy came in with no fingers on his right hand. I asked how it happened, he told me that he was using a skillsaw and sat it on a chair, he saw it start to fall, so he went to grab it. One hand grabbed the trigger, and the right hand grabbed the blade, and the rest is history.

 

[jaguar36]

I went down to the Felder showroom a couple years ago when I was looking for a new saw and they seemed like they were really great for doing big stuff, 4x8 sheets and wide slabs. They seemed pretty terrible for smaller stuff like ripping small strips off of narrower boards. The big slider would always be in the way and you'd be reaching over the blade alot. Sure it would be safer than a traditional cabinet saw, but it seems for alot of work that you can't clamp to the slider it'd be alot worse. The one thing I really liked though, was the scoring blade to prevent tearout of the face sheet, that worked really well.

If you do enough sheet goods to justify the price of one of the big sliders though a CNC router seems like it would be way more beneficial.

 

[Trboatworks]

I went down to the Felder showroom a couple years ago when I was looking for a new saw and they seemed like they were really great for doing big stuff, 4x8 sheets and wide slabs. They seemed pretty terrible for smaller stuff like ripping small strips off of narrower boards. The big slider would always be in the way and you'd be reaching over the blade alot. Sure it would be safer than a traditional cabinet saw, but it seems for alot of work that you can't clamp to the slider it'd be alot worse. The one thing I really liked though, was the scoring blade to prevent tearout of the face sheet, that worked really well.

If you do enough sheet goods to justify the price of one of the big sliders though a CNC router seems like it would be way more beneficial.

Those were exactly my reservations but I have found that fairly all cuts of small stuff can be made from a stock clamped to wagon configuration.

Think milling machine - clamped stock carried past tooling.

The key tradeoffs for me is gaining a ton of utility not native to cabinet saw at the expense of having on hand fixtures to clamp up nearly all work.

What I want to get away from is manual feeding of stock captive between fence and blade.
What bit me was a simple squaring operation of a small piece of ply.
This is something sliders excel at in complete safety for operators.

From where I am standing the freehand stuff will be limited to ripping boards longer than the wagon I fit the saw with on purchase.
Those cuts are comfortably made with guarding in place and are naturally quite safe to make.

I honestly am quite tired of working close over the blade on a cabinet saw for the small stuff and have never been happy with panel work.

Finally- the class of slider I am considering will work exactly as a cabinet saw from the normal operator position should I want to use it as such.

I would be interested in feedback from shops running these to see how they are working out for them.

Oh- and I have already gone over to the BS for rips of paint stick size output and often quite a bit larger.

One bad injury was more than enough for me.
I am going through the shop like there is an OSHA inspector breaking my balls.
I am making the investments needed and policing up the dangerous tools I have been living with for decades.

 

[Trboatworks]

And watching more videos on operations with sliders.

It is disturbing how many people run table saws with inches of blade exposed over the stock.

The ONLY thing that save me from a devastating injury was force of habit setting the bade to just clear the stock.
Do people not realize what happens if you get tangled up with that blade set that high.

 

[Burton LeGeyt]

I run a busy grad school woodshop and we have a bunch of different circular saw blade tools. I usually advise (mostly inexperienced) students based on the size of their part and their skill level

full sheets get cut down on the panel saw (safety speed 7400). Anything bigger than 24x24 goes on this, ideally. Low low risk, clean, square cuts and nice edges. A no brainer.

Below that goes to the table saw, a 3HP Sawstop (we have 2). We have large MDF sleds that can take up to a 24" cross cut and smaller Incra miter gauges for smaller and angled cuts. We also added an Exactor sliding fence that works, but isn't great. The Exactor is mostly used for cutting large foam blocks in half that are too thick for the panel saw. It will cross cut a 48" panel but I wouldn't use it for precise cuts. We set off a few cartridges each semester, always because someone runs something conductive into the blade. We are pretty strict on safety and teaching best practice on the table saw (assuming students will someday use one without the safety feature). There's plenty of stuff I would do at home that I don't allow in the student shop.

Small stuff (cross cuts and any non-angled cut below 12-13") goes to the Hammond Glider and once I show this tool to students they use it all the time. We have the small parts clamp and a custom beefier fence and students can cut pieces as small as 1/4 x 1/4 with their hand nowhere near the blade and get clean edges. Its an incredible tool and I can't believe we went so long without one. That rear small parts clamp accessory is a must have IMHO.

For super small stuff we modified a Derbyshire Micromill as a cutoff tool. That gets used mostly with a cutoff wheel to cut piano wire but we'll put a large slitting blade on there too to cut wood/plastic/brass etc...

 

[Pattnmaker]

This thread has me really thinking hard again about going to pick up a sawstop. Current saw is a Canadian made general with a 3 hp motor. Should have bought the 5hp 19 years ago I have had it rewound twice. We do a lot of ripping 8/4 or 10/4 poplar or maple. 3 employees who are all safety minded but as TR has just reminded us all the table saw is a dangerous machine. Local store has the 5hp in stock but I do wonder if I should order the 7.5. I have used stacked thin kerf blades with spacers between them to cut 3 straps at a time in the past. I realize the cartridge won't stop the blades doing this but would it be possible to use the saw like this using the dado cartridge??

Instead of using a table saw for a lot of squaring up mid size to smaller pieces. Or oddball cuts rather than using a table saw pattern shops we usually used the bandsaw and disc sander. Disc was/is 24" plus with 36 or 40 grit paper. I have cut thousands maybe tens of thousands of segments for making circular patterns or coreboxes using bandsaw and disc. While a RAS or sliding table saw is faster for the angled cut. You can often get a much better yield out of boards and work around knots better with bandsaw and can easily work around knots. Cutting and sanding to size is much safer than lots of janky tablesaw setups I have seen.

That Hammond saw looks really neat and certainly looks much safer and more efficient than a typical tablesaw or chopsaw for tiny parts.

 

[Trboatworks]

Pattern I’m kinda knocked off my feet by how close a call this was.
There are parts of it which are so arbitrary, left to simple chance that it really makes me pause.
(Read scares the crap out of me..)

We all process lots of stock and setups through the table saw.
Just by chance I went from a high blade position cutting laps on frames for a set of teak refrigerator doors to a squaring cut on 7/16” plywood.
The difference was so great that I ran the blade down to a safe height for the ply.
If I had been processing anything in the 3/4” to 1” range I probably would have just rolled with it and left the blade up a bit higher.
That difference would have cost me my fingers on my left hand and maybe my ability to work.

They say experiencing workers get careless.
I wouldn’t say that but just a simple expedience we all might take can be all it takes.
Sorry to belabor the point but this is a wake-up call for me.
I am not gonna take the chance that I get by a second time without a more serious injury.

I remember the old bits from shop class 50 years ago-
“Set band saw guard less than 1/4” over the workpiece.”
“Set table saw blade less than 1/8” over the workpiece.”

Our shop teacher hammered those points so hard that I am still following them fifty years later.

Looking back now I know why- he had a ruined hand from a table saw - three fingers gone.
I am turning into that shop teacher- be careful kids and follow the safety rules.
They are there for a reason.

 

[eKretz]

Sheesh!
Get well soon, completely, with no complications!

I did have that "funny" sense: "something is not quite right here" but plowed on anyway.

smt

I think every single time I've got hurt by any machine I had that funny feeling. Didn't get hurt when I was smart enough to listen to it. That's been *most* of the time.

Glad it was minor TR. Rub some mud on it and get back to work.

 

[john.k]

The State Works Dept were doing some renovations at the Funny Farm at Wolston Park ,a carpenter put his power saw down and turned around when he heard the saw running.....a crazy had sawed off his legs like slices of a sausage ......the legs were put back together .

 

[Scruffy887]

Cabinet saws excel at ripping lumber in smaller widths with a zero clearance throat plate. Slider will not like that because of the gap and the fact that the sliding table is higher than the fixed table. And you will never stand behind a slider the way you would with a cabinet saw, feels so awkward because you are forced to stand to the right of the blade. But once the fence and crosscut measures are calibrated you will do all cross cut operations on the slider, always standing to the left. Sliding part must be robust enough that you can lay across it to set the rip fence for wider cuts without walking around.
The saw you are looking at, K500, has the blade shield attached to the splitting knife. Ok for some stuff but can be a PITA with a lot of other operations. If at all possible I would seriously consider one of the models with the over arm guard with a dust extraction port on it. And NEVER remove the splitting knife. I keep mine just a hair below top of blade for groove cuts. I have 2 Altendorfs 10.5 foot sliders, one of them surrounded by "stuff", other used as needed. Big cabinet saw left here 3 years ago, 2 Unisaws in storage. Would like to get at least one of the Unisaws set up for little stuff, but not a high priority.

 

[Trboatworks]

I am looking now at the 700 series.
The KF700 with the tilting arbor molder could be a useful setup for me and I may even go the CF741 and gang the J/P on the kit.

In all the saws I am looking at the chassis is not extended to the right so they can comfortably act as cabinet saws re- the operator position.
I am still trying to work out what will fit in the shop and which suits best.
Ripping operations are still an open question.
The table on the Felders is dialed right it at ~.004” or so higher (so I understand) which I don’t see is going to affect work.
I am interested in the floating blade guard/dust and will either but the saw kitted with the swing arm of shop fab the drop down from ceiling.
Yeah- that bolted on the riving knife is not for me.

 

[metal-ica]

Send some pics of the new hand. Will you recover 100% ?