What do you want young engineers/designers to know?

[rcoope]

I'm generally very suspicious of anything that starts with "kids these days.." but I will relate the following. My PhD supervisor is head of one of the university engineering programs here and in addition to being a professor has wrenched on cars since childhood, and has in recent years been a pretty successful amateur race car builder and driver. He says, and this is not a guy who makes arguments from anecdotes lightly, that the basic mechanical competence of engineering students does seem to be getting rapidly worse. We're not sure why this is, since kids messing around with wood and metal working tools seems like something that might have declined a long time ago but apparently here we are. I don't think that changes what I said up thread about different professions needing to respect each other, but it doesn't help if engineers are starting from a lower base. Then again this may also affect who is coming into the machining industry, which doesn't give one confidence.

 

[JST]

What do new engineers need to KNOW? That's easy, they need to know everything that they don't know now.

What do they need to HAVE? An actual interest in whatever branch of engineering they went into. If they have that, they will generally end up to be fine, given time time. If they have that interest, they will learn more outside of work or even school than they ever do in school or at work. And they will probably have, or soon get, hands-on experience.

Engineering school SHOULD be a place to learn the tools to enable you to do what you already want to do. Emphasis on the "want to do".

What I saw is a lot of new engineers I interviewed for possible employment were folks whose first exposure to their chosen area was in E-school. That cannot be good.

I was messing with electronics years before I went to university, and I took a couple years off in the process, where I worked in a Hifi repair shop, which was an education in and of itself. I had the background to hit the ground running, which is also what I had to do in my first job. And that's what we wanted them to do.

Too many seemed to be too much like the stereotypical Indian engineer, all numbers and no hands-on experience. I'd talk to them to get an impression, I'd even look at the resume out of politeness, but as long as they had an EE degree, that's all I needed to know about their schooling.

Then I would pull out a schematic of one of our products, and ask them to find some part of it they recognized and tell me about it. I'd ask questions and see what they knew or could figure out.

Anyhow, too many belly-flopped on that. They showed no real understanding of what circuits did, and did not seem to have ever had to figure anything out.

I cannot imagine it is any better now, for mechanical engineers as well as electrical (I'll give civil engineers a pass on never having driven a 'dozer or dump truck). It seems that many people do not "do things" anymore. I see folks asking on the "Nextdoor" group (a neighborhood oriented social media site) for someone who can hang a picture, or paint a door, etc. Stuff that I grew up with just doing off-hand.

Coming out of that sort of background, maybe it is not surprising that new engineers may seem completely unprepared for real world stuff.

 

[mhajicek]

I'm generally very suspicious of anything that starts with "kids these days.." but I will relate the following. My PhD supervisor is head of one of the university engineering programs here and in addition to being a professor has wrenched on cars since childhood, and has in recent years been a pretty successful amateur race car builder and driver. He says, and this is not a guy who makes arguments from anecdotes lightly, that the basic mechanical competence of engineering students does seem to be getting rapidly worse. We're not sure why this is, since kids messing around with wood and metal working tools seems like something that might have declined a long time ago but apparently here we are. I don't think that changes what I said up thread about different professions needing to respect each other, but it doesn't help if engineers are starting from a lower base. Then again this may also affect who is coming into the machining industry, which doesn't give one confidence.

When I was a kid, I had wood shop, metal shop, jewelry metal working, ceramics, and extra special for me, an engineer dad with a lathe and some machining experience. Kids these days mostly only have book learning classes, most hands-on stuff has been canceled, as it doesn't contribute to college prep. Kids hardly even wrench on their cars any more.

I've had to teach basic metallurgy stuff to senior engineers; things like, yes, metal can change shape just sitting on a shelf, if you measure it closely enough. Had a group of engineers that kept designing assemblies (medical, dry, unlubricated) with multiple adjacent moving parts made from 17-4 H900. They would gall up every single time, and I'd have to remind them again to use dissimilar materials.

IMO, a prerequisite to being a good engineer, is being at least an entry level machinist. In the old days, engineers were made from senior machinists. If you don't know how to make it, how can you design it? The time and money I've seen wasted...

 

[plastikdreams]

From what I've seen, new engineers lack direction. Basically they are hired and then thrown right into the job with little or no guidance. They are given a senior engineer to work with who is already overloaded with work. Unless the new engineer takes the initiative to learn the job they will be struggling the entire time.

 

[TDegenhart]

For young engineers just out of college, I would say that the most important lesson is to understand the basics of what they are doing. Unless you do research machining, understanding the relationship between tool geometry, chip development, heat treat, coolants, fixturing,... all the stuff a machinist goes through to set up a job, is more important than trying to calculation forces on the tool, heat flow, rheology and such. The real world has many more degrees of freedom than do the college problems that start with 'we assume such and such' These problems are to teach basics, not necessarily real life applications.

As others have said, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty. Perhaps take a community college course in machining. Learn about all the different ways that materials and parts can be made. One of the golden opportunities I had was to work for a GE facility that was vertically integrated manufacturing wise. Molding of metals and plastics, plating, machining, stamping, heat treating, assembly, the list goes on. If your company has a 'engineers workshop', lathes, mills, grinders and such encourage them to spend time there, break a few tools (but not the machine), perhaps give them a 'project' to work on, see how they go about working on it.

Tom

 

[DDoug]

From what I've seen, new engineers lack direction. Basically they are hired and then thrown right into the job with little or no guidance. They are given a senior engineer to work with who is already overloaded with work. Unless the new engineer takes the initiative to learn the job they will be struggling the entire time.

The senior engineer retired qty (2) years ago, and they just found out they needed to replace them so they hired the newbie....

 

[Kalispel]

Engineers learn from experience like everyone else. Personality is the biggest differentiator I have found among engineers.

Most newly minted engineers get into trouble by being over-confident and introverted at the same time. They will tend to blindly specify a direction without getting any guidance then dig into their position without hearing feedback. It is difficult to cure unless someone with practical experience is willing to take the time to patiently work with them. The best way to train them is to let them make mistakes and require them to clean up their mess. Go slow and be forceful. Decide what you need them to do and keep them narrowly focused until they get the lesson. They will settle into the niche and become a productive contributor. Most will never advance beyond their comfortable cocoon. This model works for large companies. The time, effort and cost may not be practical for a small company.

An engineer with a sociable and outgoing nature is rare and valuable. Kids with some talent and the ability to connect are powerful. They are imaginative, self-motivated and flexible. Most of them worked their way through school. They are naturally curious and will push their trainers to learn. Within a few years, they will start to develop as leaders who can help move your company forward. Once they grow their wings, they are going to fly. The trick is not to try to hold them back because they will fly away.

 

[TDegenhart]

For young engineers just out of college, I would say that the most important lesson is to understand the basics of what they are doing. Unless you do research machining, understanding the relationship between tool geometry, chip development, heat treat, coolants, fixturing,... all the stuff a machinist goes through to set up a job, is more important than trying to calculation forces on the tool, heat flow, rheology and such. The real world has many more degrees of freedom than do the college problems that start with 'we assume such and such' These problems are to teach basics, not necessarily real life applications.

As others have said, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty. Perhaps take a community college course in machining. Learn about all the different ways that materials and parts can be made. One of the golden opportunities I had was to work for a GE facility that was vertically integrated manufacturing wise. Molding of metals and plastics, plating, machining, stamping, heat treating, assembly, the list goes on. If your company has a 'engineers workshop', lathes, mills, grinders and such encourage them to spend time there, break a few tools (but not the machine), perhaps give them a 'project' to work on, see how they go about working on it.

Tom

PS: I forgot to list design for assembly. Often times parts can be designed that are difficult to assemble. Also the design needs to take into account the machines and processes needed to produce it. If the part as designed requires a five axis mill and the company doesn't have one, can one or more axis's be eliminated by changing the design. On the other hand, don't be afraid to think outside of the box.

T:-

 

[Borealis]

1. Engineers should spend a year or two cutting their teeth in the shop before they start designing so they intuitively understand what's easy and what's not so easy. This experience directly addresses workholding, feature aspect ratios, internal radii, tolerances, and all kinds of other issues. CAD makes it incredibly easy to design things that are difficult to make. Shop experience is the antidote.

2. Every new engineer gets a PAPER copy of the McMaster catalog. Require them to page through the entire thing from one end to the other to learn what already exists and can be bought, not made.

3. The company should create a "Guidelines for Design" document that standardizes things like drawings, the system of units, preferred materials, fail-safe design philosophy, fastener selection, dowel pin fits, pipe threads, paint colors, quick-disconnects, etc. Of course the engineers have to break the rules now and then, but when there is a universe of possible ways of doing something, having guidelines usually speeds things up.

4. Close the loop. With every thing the engineer designs, make him assemble it, disassemble it. When something breaks, it's very important to have him see the aftermath and figure out what happened.

5. Teach your engineers kinematic design principles so they can avoid overconstraint when possible.

 

[JS]

Don't be afraid to ask someone for help........or for information.....

If your a reliability Engineer read the installation / maintenance directions for the equipment your working with...

Don't be one of the (15) engineers googling specs / calculations and then screwing it up.........

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The other side of the coin........

If they designed it, calculate etc...

The responsibility, ends up on their shoulders, not the vendors, not the machinist, or any other coworkers....

Especially, if all of their processes were followed and documented, when and if it fails.....

 

[jim rozen]

2. Every new engineer gets a PAPER copy of the McMaster catalog. ....

I was nearly excited as much, when at 21 I discovered the mcmaster carr catalog as when I discovered hustler magazine at 14. Spicy reading as they say.

 

[John Garner]

Another thing I'd like all 1) bean counters and 2) design engineers to understand is that optimization of individual parts does not always produce an optimal assembly.

 

[Conrad Hoffman]

Were we any better at their age?

I wish all engineers/designers had to do some basic machining, but it's not going to happen.

Workholding- where's the fixed jaw on the vise and why does it matter?

Everything's made of rubber- your part is going to flex and you better know where and how much.

Take them to a machine and ask them to find the tolerance knob. Then teach them how tolerances are actually achieved in the shop.

Maybe this is only my personal gripe, but draw and dimension the CAD drawings at nominal, not MMC. Sure, I own a calculator, but why do I have to figure out the actual target dimensions for everything? Isn't that what the print is for?

There are a million standard threads and drill sizes. Try not to invent new ones.

Don't design parts so they require the next larger size stock. Understand cleanup allowance and the cost of waste.

Don't design blind threads if it's just as easy to drill through.

Understand how the part is going to be measured. Don't dimension to points in space that don't exist! Feel free to add a hole or feature whos only purpose is measurement, say to an angled feature.

Probably a million more things, but there's a start.

 

[crickets]

Were we any better at their age?

I wish all engineers/designers had to do some basic machining, but it's not going to happen.

Machining is typically part of the curriculum for mechanical engineers.

I think folks here tend to take a one-sided approach, sort of "engineers make our lives difficult with impossible asks." Perhaps the question to ask is since folks don't want to do engineers' jobs, why is it expected that the engineers will do yours ?

Complex problems are solved through team work and delegation. There will be some cross-pollination with experience, but it is normal to expect that the asks will be impossible (or outright dumb), which you will push back on, and a reasonable compromise will be achieved.

 

[CarbideBob]

...
Complex problems are solved through team work and delegation.

Team work with know it all engineers and know it all machinists?

 

[crickets]

Team work with know it all engineers and know it all machinists?

That's where you have the managers for arbitration, put everyone's "know it all" into its place for the common benefit.

 

[plastikdreams]

Team work with know it all engineers and know it all machinists?

I work with a know it all...in fact we almost got into a fist fight the other day. To make things worse, he's threatened by my knowledge so he tries to put me down when he can. It's pretty funny though. Most people see through his bullshit and he doesn't even know it.

Fortunately the pay and benefits are more than worth it...and I'm 3 miles from home. I literally fill up every 3-4 weeks.

 

[garyhlucas]

That reading stuff? I’ve read the entire Thomas Register all 21 volumes, twice. McMaster Carr front to back three times.

The problem you guys are talking about I am working on, as a mentor for the local FIRST Robotics team. Most of you here should be mentors for one of the 7,000 or so teams in the US. Season just started and we have 8 weeks to design, build, program and test a robot that can cost up to $5,000.

 

[plastikdreams]

I did work for a robotics team years ago at a place I worked for. A good customer was involved with the team, I don't think we charged labor.

I'd do it but I can't have anyone in our building lol.

 

[Antarctica]

Worry about doing your job. Not when you're gonna be an f'ing VP.