What is our responsibility to the next generation of manufacturing?

[SShep71]

I recently saw the new video "I Helped the Engineer, Now They Are Sending the Work OFFSHORE?!" by Ian on the Practical Machinist YouTube channel. It brought to mind a conversation that I have discussed a few times with shop owners and other more seasoned tradesmen, what is the expectation that we (the current holders of the flame) have towards the next generation of young people who seek the knowledge?

When I was learning all the trades when I was young I was taught with the understanding that there is an expectation that I master the trades then pass the information along to others along the way. That I never let the knowledge set die or grow old and stale. I have spent just as much time trying to teach and teaching those willing to learn as I have with actual work at times, at times it is in vein but at other times it has been exceptionally beneficial. Now that I am in engineering school and in a position in where I am the eccentric older guy in class with all the experience, I have had a lot of engineering students reach out for advice and help with "why" things are done they way they are when I give feedback. I have seen more and more young people reach out at times asking to be taught how to design things and why they are designed that way. I always suggest (to those who reach out to me) that they also seek knowledge from others, to ask for help but be willing to work for it. When I follow up I am often told that the people that the help is sought from is unwilling to help or work with them, I used to just rack it up to the young person be difficult to work with but the more I look into it I find that no one is willing to put anytime into growing the knowledge. One shop owner (who is in the later stages of his career) always denies helping or mentoring others, claiming "I did it myself why can't they" one minute then talking about how he worked for an old tool and die shop that taught him everything he knows the next minute. He came to me asking for advice on a critical weld procedure a ways back and I denied him the help, I told him why would I help you if you won't help anyone else. He was offended, telling me that we need to stick together that this is how "we" keep the work flowing. I rebutted with once again reminding him that he was taught by someone and he ought to teach it to the next person, that maybe if there were people with the knowledge willing to pass it along maybe the stuff these young engineers design won't be complete shit. The conversation went back and forth with him yelling it isn't his responsibility to teach anyone, that his knowledge will die with him and he is going to be buried with his tools ass up to the world and so on an so forth. Yet, this same guy consistently bitches that he cannot find anyone to work for him that is worth a damn, or that the engineering drawings are garbage and "full of mommies mistakes". This is not an isolated event, I have had several discussions when I have owners complain to me about the quality of work, I always ask "what are you doing to fix it?" implying that someone had to teach us the right way to do things now it's our turn.

So I ask again, why is our responsibility, what expectations do we bear to make sure that the next generation doesn't Crayola crayon this country further and further into manufacturing oblivion. Keep in mind this isn't about any country stealing manufacturing, unions, jobs going overseas, lazy youth, etc. This is about US... those who currently are in the know how.

 

[CarbideBob]

If we do not pass it on, what good was it to learn it?
Not just machining but all of life's lessons.

 

[Stoney83]

My take on passing the torch is it’s good for business. The guys that show up on time and work hard get the opportunity to learn and grow. This opportunity is proportional to the effort they put forth. In my case I’m the only person in the shop that can do certain task so why not lighten my workload and train the guys to be more skilled? Not for egalitarian reasons but because it’s a win win for everyone.

With that said I’m not going out of my way to train guys that don’t work for me and can relate to the YouTube video where training customers probably isn’t in your best interest. Those engineers at the other company are someone else’s responsibility.

 

[CarbideBob]

With that said I’m not going out of my way to train guys that don’t work for me and can relate to the YouTube video where training customers probably isn’t in your best interest. Those engineers at the other company are someone else’s responsibility.

I'd have to question that one.
No engineers here work for me. No customers.
Should I not try to help them or you?
You are telling me it is bad to try to teach something even it might be wrong? Hmm, thoughtful.

 

[john.k]

The venture capitalists and corporate vultures cancelled the notion of loyalty and fair dealing a lot of years ago ...........the current generation is "all for one ,that one is me"

 

[guythatbrews]

With that said I’m not going out of my way to train guys that don’t work for me and can relate to the YouTube video where training customers probably isn’t in your best interest. Those engineers at the other company are someone else’s responsibility.

I made the mistake of showing a cadre of my customers engineers how we were making one of their parts. A huge order. Wasn't long before they pulled the order. They stole my process and even bought the exact same machines to run it in house. They taught me to be wary of who I help, and how much.

Unscrupulous folks don't help the information/training exchange. And plenty are out there.

 

[SShep71]

The venture capitalists and corporate vultures cancelled the notion of loyalty and fair dealing a lot of years ago ...........the current generation is "all for one ,that one is me"

Isn't that what the last generation said about the generation that came before it, and before that, and the one before that. I am not necessarily disagreeing as the "social media" generation is an entirely new experiment, but does that remove any responsibility from us, the current workforce to pass the info along?
Do we just give up and throw hands up because the "latest and greatest" are doing similar things to what previous generations did?
This is my actual question, not rhetorical, I am legitimately asking here.

 

[SShep71]

I made the mistake of showing a cadre of my customers engineers how we were making one of their parts. A huge order. Wasn't long before they pulled the order. They stole my process and even bought the exact same machines to run it in house. They taught me to be wary of who I help, and how much.

Unscrupulous folks don't help the information/training exchange. And plenty are out there.

Well that is more of a mistake of oversharing in my opinion (no judgement), I am more targeting the "finding a new kid and teaching him/her the basics" or inferred help that isn't specific to a process. A common notion I try to get across to some of the young engineers I am in school with it the question "Can you put a 3/8" bolt in a 3/8" hole?". Trying to engage the idea of tolerancing, and how many people see this simple question so many different ways. I try to encourage them to not just assume that the person reading the design understands things as they see it. I try to avoid pointing out exact mistakes and guide them to the answer, but am I doing the students a disservice by doing this?

 

[jellywerker]

Sometimes I like to wade into the mud here.

I think I'm probably on the younger side compared to most of PM. I've gained quite a bit of knowledge through having the opportunity to dig through what everyone has shared here, and I'm thankful for that.

Any talk of "generations" tends to act like generations are raised in a vacuum, and that it isn't the generation before them that did the raising. You may not agree with the cultural climate, but it was your peers that made it.

But that's irrelevant b.s., so let's consider the topic.

I try to share what little I've learned as much as possible. You never know what good it might do or what it might spark in someone. Sometimes that might lead to a feeling of being taken advantage of, or not feeling like you're fairly rewarded for sharing your knowledge. As long as you're making a living, I say phooey to that. If you get a feeling that someone is consistently taking your knowledge and using it without thanks or remuneration, then of course it's time to politely but firmly turn off the tap, but otherwise keep sharing what you've learned as broadly as you can.

That said, I wish I knew how to advocate for more apprentice type or other longer term training systems here in the U.S., as it feels like the cost of learning how to do something has been pushed onto the employee in many cases. That's a tangent, but it's related in that while I think there's a personal responsibility to teach those below you, there should also be a business responsibility to cultivate talent, but that doesn't directly translate to profit, and so seems to be mostly on the way out. Speaking of venture capital...

 

[EmGo]

Isn't that what the last generation said about the generation that came before it, and before that, and the one before that.

Is it really though ? Obviously there have always been ruthless greedy dishonest people, but seems to me that's only been morally acceptable and a foundation of the society since Milton Friedman.

I could be wrong but it seems like beforetime, people would say "Joe is a nasty evil rotten filthy son of a bitch but boy does he have a nice house !" whereas now, they openly admire shitty people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good" is now an accepted value, where before it was disgusting but happened ?

That seems to be a pretty big change.

 

[john.k]

Venture capitalists .........they are lawyers ,accountants ,IT MBAs.........take over a well run business and gut it completely in five years or less ......at any given moment they will be doing this to maybe 20 companies .........sometimes they will be in court charged with tax fraud or false accounting,or insolvent trading or ocassionally they will be charged under industrial laws for the death of an employee,otherwise they keep a very low profile .

 

[texasgeartrain]

I do mostly repair work, not manufacturing. My favorite is customers calling me to guide them through a repair, for free, eating my time no less. My customers are large outfits, so I'm often obliged to help. Long term it often leads to them sucking up all my easy gravy jobs, while dumping every man killing, or nightmare job on me, or dropping the middle of night, or weekend jobs on me. Others with more class, just ask for help in true emergencies.

Training co-workers and new guys. In my 30's and 40's I'd freely help, guide, and instruct anyone. No fear and I wanted a solid crew. I'd dare anyone to be as good or better than me.

There has always been a man power shortage in what i do, even when i was young and starting out. Could be my perspective, but i feel its worse now. So few want to put in, or try improve, be the best. . . And it seems waves of guys that just start getting to the upper skill level and in the 30-35 year old range, and bail out into an office job or different career.

I'll still try to guide, instruct, train. But im a little more gaurded in how much time and effort I put in. I say that, but I've got a 19 year old blank piece paper I'm attempting to turn into something useful on the payroll as we speak.

 

[john.k]

Next door business was a big auto electrical shop........the owner was a sleaze ,and he always had girl trainees ,and most would quit after a few months of suggestive talk and touching ....His wife was always there ,she was a monster 7ft tall ,and always trying to catch him at it.......The shop was the worst rip off hole on that side of town,would charge dummies $1000 to fix a fuze........Its still there ,and has taken over my old shop building,as well as others.

 

[Stoney83]

I'd have to question that one.
No engineers here work for me. No customers.
Should I not try to help them or you?
You are telling me it is bad to try to teach something even it might be wrong? Hmm, thoughtful.

Depends on your relationship with the company and people involved. Machinist are paid for both making parts and the expertise to do so.

In the posters example the machinist was sharing expertise then the work was sent to China. So if by helping the customer you are undermining yourself; then Yes it is wrong to help them.

That example is probably a worst case scenario but a little discretion never hurts.

 

[technocrat]

Isn't that what the last generation said about the generation that came before it, and before that, and the one before that. I am not necessarily disagreeing as the "social media" generation is an entirely new experiment, but does that remove any responsibility from us, the current workforce to pass the info along?
Do we just give up and throw hands up because the "latest and greatest" are doing similar things to what previous generations did?
This is my actual question, not rhetorical, I am legitimately asking here.

No, there has been a culture change. Experienced people are expendable. Government enterprises no longer train people. In Australia, government orgs trained a lot of the apprentices and they are now dieing out, without replacements. The concept of a journeyman no longer exists. Everything (in big business) is about the bottom line and often this is manipulated in order to transfer money without regard to the big picture.

 

[Stoney83]

I made the mistake of showing a cadre of my customers engineers how we were making one of their parts. A huge order. Wasn't long before they pulled the order. They stole my process and even bought the exact same machines to run it in house. They taught me to be wary of who I help, and how much.

Unscrupulous folks don't help the information/training exchange. And plenty are out there.

Had a similar experience with a customer. I’ve been lucky in that process is pretty specialized and they haven’t been able to duplicate it yet. Judging by their social media it’ll be a while.

Since then we have been tightening up the security with restricted access signs and dog with mean bark. There’s only a handful of customers allowed in the building with most being in unrelated areas of machining.

 

[john.k]

I learned a long time ago ,that showing customers a job in progress can often result in the wrong idea being spread ...and certainly never let a customer know your employees if you can avoid it...........Losing good employees is possibly the biggest drama you can have.

 

[EmGo]

I've got a 19 year old blank piece paper I'm attempting to turn into something useful on the payroll as we speak.

Is that really fair to him tho ? Maybe shouldn't you be telling him to go to Burger King and start working his way up ?

When I was mid-twenties I was making $5, 6 an hour and had spending money and a beginner house was - sit tight - $50,000. In Marin.

Now you can't touch a doghouse for less than $750,000 and food rent insurance cars medicine - Kaiser was $75/month then ... to be fair, a beginner machinist would have to be making $50-75/hr to be where we were.

Is that ever going to happen ?

It's ethical and moral and all that to say we should teach our up-and-coming replacements but maybe it's not at all fair, and they should be doing anything else ? Maybe the society just treats us so badly we decide "fuck them" and let the whole thing collapse in a giant pile of helplessness ? Because bankers and insurance companies and increasingly hospitals and just about everything that a hedge fund can get into can do nothing but rip people off ...

 

[john.k]

There is nothing I know that anyone wants to learn .....just a waste of their time and mine..

 

[Limy Sami]

First you'll have to find members of the next generation that really want to learn the skills you have to pass on - and the best of luck of that score (you'll need it)