What is the allure of the 10ee?

[jlegge]

The Double E (the term Monarch called this lathe) was part of the lathe evolution that Monarch started when they realized that they had to manufacture a better lathe than the hundreds of competitors. Monarch were the leaders of improving the lathe design with new features like the cone clutches to operate the long. and cross feeds, helical geared headstock with Timken bears, force feed lubrication, harden bed and the cam lock spindle. They produced an all hydraulic lathe in the late 1920's and high speed spindles (4,000 rpm BB) in the early thirties. So they had a engineering group that understood all the drawbacks with the current lathe design when it came to super accuracy. So when they got the design request for a toolroom lathe that turned into the Double E, they were ready. They also had an electrical engineer that was a ham radio hobbest that used this radio technology to design the variable speed electric drive for the Double E. When the Double E hit the market, there wasn't anything like her. She had the heavy cast iron base and bed with an oversized carriage like other Monarchs, but also had the super precision spindle, supported by SKF super precision tapered roller bearings, and being belt driven it didn't have the gear tooth imposes gear heads had, and topped off with the Art Deco curves that made it pleasant to the eye. All at a premium cost, but one that would not break the bank. The design of the Double E would be refined clear into the 1990s, keeping it the king of the toolroom lathes that few can equal, but none can really surpass. There are over 20,000 Double E's built and the majority still running, which supports why so many people still want this lathes in their shop.

John L.

 

[jim rozen]

1) full torque at tick-over speed.
2) same swing as a 10L southbend, about five times heavier
3) some came with hollow state electronics
4) did I mention full torque at dead slow spindle speed?
5) top end, what 4K?

 

[Ultradog MN]

It has been interesting to reread this thread.
If the lathe fairies came and offered to swap a 10EE for my old CK I would not do it. If a guy has room and money to own a couple of lathes an EE would be nice.
But for an only lathe they are just too small.
And I wouldn't want the overly complex drive system the 10EEs had.
If something goes wrong on a CK's drive a guy can fix it with an axe.
On the other hand, if the fairies offered me a younger Series 60 or 61 (whatever their number is) in the same size as what I have I would no doubt make that trade.
By the way, have they banned that jackass Goldstein yet?
Reading a thread like this is like a pleasant drive down a country lane.
When he shows up it is like following behind a farmer pulling a manure spreader down that lane.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Hard to argue. Diff'rent folks need diff'rent strokes. Some consider a Derbyshire too big and clumsy for watch works. Some work barely fits a Craven.

What is "complex" about one flat belt or two "A" section Vee belts that don't much give a damn WHAT sort of power is on the opposite end from the spindle?

Has two gears. Can make beaucoup chips with zero, and some do exactly that.

The rest is about as agnostic as such things get. Hydraulics, DC motor, AC motor, Servo motor.. or whatever else can pull a belt....... and ALL the rest of the lathe "Just works" to the same TIR, etc.

"Geared head" lathes are what is complex and expensive. Break a gear and whimper. Have one with electric and/or hydraulic clutches and shifter? 10EE's most complex, EVER electronics look simple by comparison and ARE, come better documented, have more support help from Monarch, plus "right here, on PM", and get repaired faster and usually cheaper.

You think a 10EE is "complex"?

Go over to Tony's website and look up what my Cazenuve HBX-360-BC has for "complex".
There's enough "French Weird" in that puppy's "Special Apron" alone to scare Rube Goldberg tongue-tied.

A 10EE is simplicity executed to near-as-dammit perfection. The controls are where one expects them to be if accustomed to lathes in general. They work the same way. There's nothing weird. Not a "complex" nor even at-odds with tradition bone in it. Operator basically turns a knob to set a speed. No rain-dance, sacrificing of animals, nor PhD In Engineering required.


The MG DC drive? Adapted from the sort as ran ignorant elevators in the era. Works well. Last a SCARY long time. Cheap to fix when worn or damaged. Not hard to replace if not.

WiaD and Module drives? Simpler than a basic AM-only AC/DC table radio, just bigger.

DC solid state? AC VFD? Servo?

Somebody else already engineered and built the "box" they come in. They are interchangeable "appliances".
RTFM and dial or punch in appropriate settings, same as any other machine tool those goods are used for.

If we chat about all these.. a LOT? It's because we are helping newcomers, pushing new limits, having fun, sharing so as to try to "get to the end" and with less money out of pocket. ... sooner.

Then again..... waddya think about cell phones, laptops, multimedia centres, microwaves, programmable energy saving thermostats, motorcars, pickem-up trucks, tractors, forklifts, ATM cash machines, or game consoles .... for "complex"?

Learn one. Learn the next.

I cheat. Leave all that iPhone type stuff to a Chinese M'in Law mid 90 years of age young..Marco-Polo Bridge incident, Japanese invasion of China? She only ever got 140-odd days of primary schooling, then war .. and eventually sniping a dozen-plus Japanese NCO's and Officers for messing-up her education.. .. never let her go back.

Had to learn on her own. Surely she won't mind if other folk do the same.

What was that all about thermite?
An attemp to dazzle with brilliance? Maybe to baffle with BS?
Yeah, I'm new here but not so new I can't spot a crack pot reply.

 

[ezduzit]

...
If the lathe fairies came and offered to swap a 10EE for my old CK I would not do it...

You're a little old to believe in fairies, aren't you?

 

[jlegge]

I agree that size matters. Most home shops are small and the Double E fits well in the space, but it is not a versatile as lathes with longer beds. With space and cost constraints a lather Monarch would be better. That way Monarch built lathes from 10 to 48+ swings and in alld different lengths of center distances. Monarch was far from a 1 trick pony company, they were a manufacturer of toolroom, engine lathes and production lathes of all sizes. And yes, Monarch's designs did have their limitations, and were equaled in many areas by other large lathe manufacturers (America, Lodge & Shipley, LeBlonde, Axelson, Springfield and Sidney all made solid lathes along with others not mentioned).

But the size and profitability of Monarch at the time it designed the Double E was another factor in its success, as it had the deep pockets to develop both the lathe design and how to manufacture it in quantity without sacrificing the machines precision. During the height of Double E production, two man final assembly crews were building a Double E per day. I do not think any other company could build such a precision lathe that fast.

John

 

[kustomizer]

You're a little old to believe in fairies, aren't you?

Your in California, that is where they worship them.

 

[Ultradog MN]

You're a little old to believe in fairies, aren't you?

Ummm.
No!
One of these days I'll tell the story of how I got my CK.
It had to be fairies. I swear...

 

[ezduzit]

Should have some photos. Here's my 1970 model.

 

[jlegge]

Mounted my skates a skosh higher. Lets me sneak the nose of an ordinary floor jack under, not have to drag my clumsier toe-jacks to it.

Side note, but ages ago, I checked staistics and found that my G'Dad (1880's), Dad, (1910), and meself (1945) all just happened to be "national average" height for our respective generations.

The 10EE was designed when the average operator wudda been a lot shorter than today's operators are.
So a six-foot or six-two operator may be happiest if his 10EE is up about 4" off the deck.

Your comments reminded me of a visit to a manufacture a few years back and had to go to their toolroom where I was shocked to find a 20 some year old Monarch Ultra-Center still being used (A machine I spent a lot of time designing), but also a Double E that was on 6 inch riser blocks. The head of the toolroom said the guy that ran it was about 6'5" and this made it ergo friendly.

 

[TheOldCar]

This one is my 1977 I/M modular drive originally ordered by Sandia Labs.




And this one is my 1945 MG drive originally ordered by RCA.

This one gets lots ‘o use and abuse.

 

[jim rozen]

"WiaD and Module drives? Simpler than a basic AM-only AC/DC table radio, just bigger."

Ah, no. Not close. Nice try though. I'd take one with the Ward-Leonard.

 

[TheOldCar]

Still OEM "Hollow State"? Or Tim's Scissio drop-ins?



MG's don' give a damn about "abuse"!

May as well threaten Anastasia Steele with a spanking!

The modular is now "full Scissio" and I am VERY impressed. His solid state tube replacements and module perform! I had to bite the bullet and buy a complete backup set also, which is still cheaper than OEM tubes. Only the "small" tube is still a tube, and gives off a purple glow.

EDIT—- I wanted to buy a complete Scissio backup set, not had to. If he ever stops making them or I fry something, I wanted a spare module and pair of solid state tube replacements.