When should you consider something other than Turcite for a wear surface

[dgfoster]

THe Devitt company provides a nice application handbook that might be useful to review for a general background on use of the various Moglice products and DWH products. For instance, the practical limits on thickness to thinness are spelled out. I suppose that it is possible that some of the information in the brochure may be dated.

http://www.moglice.com/handbook/handbook.pdf

Denis

 

[Mcgyver]

Richard, for a 10ee reconditioning starting with a freshly ground bed, which would be you choice and why?

 

[Richard King]

Hmmmm, putting me on the spot..my choices hmmm let me think outloud ..lol Several years ago when my Dad was still running the company we rebuilt a EE and we put on Amco 18. It wasn't the difficult but time consuming as we milled out the extra material needed to accept 1/16" sheared pieces. Then we drilled, tapped, countersank flat head brass screws in for extra support and epoxied it on too, to fill the uneven material. We roughened the one side of the Amco. After it dried we then scraped and 1/2 moon flaked it.

Now after seeing how slick VettBob did his with Moglice http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/new-me-10ee-271950/index4.html I would give it a try, but still thinking outloud... He made little blocks that looked like way wipers and screwed in screws he had brazed some brass to the end so he could adjust the squareness with his blade square. I had let him use my granite square to test his blade sq. then sprayed the release agent on the bed, mixed up the "Putty Hard" and putty knifed it on to the saddle after he sand blasted it. then set the saddle on the bed to let it dry. I believe he told me he set his Kurt vise on the saddle to help squeeze out the putty.

Bob was brave using the Moglice on his first try. He did get a small air pocket on the end which can be seen. I have been using Turcite for years and now use Rulon 142 and with the length of the saddle to bed ratio I would not worry one bit about the material squishing. I also talked to Dave Biering [[email protected], a process engineer with Tri-Star Plastics who tells me that Rulon is usually applied wrong as it doesn't work properly with the wide surfaces. I'll ask him to write something for this thread. get it from the expert. After thinking about it ...I would probably choose Rulon. Because I like to be able to tweek it in and dread the thought of air-pockets. I'll also write Cody at Moglice to write something for us too. Rich

PS: Just emailed Tri-star and Moglice asking them to contribute . One thing I have learned over the years, not to be to proud to ask for help.

 

[DavidScott]

Is Moglice harder, higher shore #, than Turcite/Rulon?

 

[Richard King]

I just heard back from Tri-Star. I asked him about a question I asked him several years ago about stick slip on Turcite they were experiencing at YCM in Taiwan. He wrote me back then and here is what he said tonight.

Hi Richard,
Yes I remember the conversation well. My experience in Asia over the years when it came to how much material they use on the slides is that they always put way too much material. Rulon and Turcite are designed to work within a load range to optimize the friction properties when running dry. The difficulty they have over there is that they don’t buy into the concept of the higher the load, the lower the friction. That is a proven concept that is easily demonstrated in dry wear testing. As an example, I went to one manufacturer in Japan that was using 4” wide flat bearing strips as well as a v-guide. The total surface area of Rulon 142 was over 182 square inches. When they calculated out their total load potential for the machine it worked out that the actual surface load was under 2 psi. We need at least 50 psi to get the transfer media to effectively coat the mating surface and get the low friction results. So our instructions to them was to reduce the overall surface area by 60% to increase the load, thus reducing the friction. We have new technology now where shallow dimples are produced in the tape material to further reduce surface contact area but also add lubricant reservoirs for better film retention.
So the key is to be sure you don’t UNDERLOAD the Rulon or Turcite so you get the best possible performance.
Now all that said, as long as the lube system is in working order the dry friction values aren’t relevant. So the Rulon is really an insurance policy against lube failure. Better than metal on metal galling!

Have a safe trip!

Regards,
David Biering| Technical Director | TriStar Plastics Corp. | (714)660-4915 |(714)279-9664 Fx
Dave Biering [[email protected]

 

[dgfoster]

Is Moglice harder, higher shore #, than Turcite/Rulon?

Turcite Slydway is Shore 60
Moglice is in the 84 to 88 range

Denis

 

[DavidScott]

Shore A or D?

 

[dgfoster]

Shore A or D?

Well in the link I posted above it is ShoreD for Moglice and in the following link also ShoreD for Turcite
http://tss-static.com/remotemedia/m...byscript/catalogs/turcite_b_slydway_gb_en.pdf

Denis

 

[DavidScott]

Thank you, sorry for being so lazy. One interesting bit of info in the pdf is the "practical limits of thickness" for Moglice is .015"-.25".

 

[dgfoster]

Thank you, sorry for being so lazy. One interesting bit of info in the pdf is the "practical limits of thickness" for Moglice is .015"-.25".

Yes, I noticed that too (see post 21 which alludes to but deliberately did not restate those limits) which seemed to be at odds with other lower limits stated earlier in this thread. Didn't want to stir controversy but left it to the curious to read the link and discover for themselves and evaluate for themselves.

Denis

 

[Richard King]

We will get it from the horses mouth when we hear from Cody or I'll ask Drew Devitt to write us something. Back when I used to sell it they said .062" and last time I spoke to Cody he said .040" . I can't believe .015 would be acceptable as you need to grind or mold in oil grooves and to me .015 would break off or crack. Rich

 

[Richard King]

I am on Tri-Stars mailing list and they send out a monthly email. Here is one that could be very useful here. Its on bushings, but a bushing is a round bearing and we work with flat bearings. Rich

Composite Bearings Replace Bronze to Improve Manufacturing Profits

 

[DavidScott]

I am sure there are disclaimers to those "practical limits". Maybe the .015" limit is more for say a tailstock bore than a flat way.

 

[Richard King]

I just received this from Cody I am not sure how to add the PDF on the Turcite. If you want to see it, please contact Cody directly. Rich

re: Moglice and Turcite discussion on Practical Machinist
Cody Reeves [[email protected]]

Sent: Wed, 12:00 pm
To: Richard King
Attachments: Waylock Turcite Installation_June 2014.pdf
Hello Rich,

To answer the Moglice questions first, the hardness for Moglice is shown as Shore D. For Moglice "Putty Hard" is 88 Shore D and Moglice "1000 Putty" is 89 Shore D. These are the two Putty forms of Moglice that our customers use in rebuilding linear bearings for 10EE. We recommend the minimum thickness of .060", this insures that you will achieve maximum performance of the newly molded bearing. The practical limits of thickness simply states that the Moglice can mold to those thickness and still perform (.015" to .250"). From our experience we have seen the best results from thickness .060" to .125". Devitt Machinery Co. sells both Turcite B and Moglice products. We feel that there are certain areas of rebuilding, that one product may work better than the other, but in the end its application ease. For example, If you wanted to avoid scrapping you can use the Moglice method and "Mold-to-Fit". The process is as follows:

Preparation
Roughen adhesion areas down to a roughness of .3-.5 mm (.011"-.019") and then clean chemically with our Cleaner/Degreaser. The opposing side you will be molding to will also need to be cleaned with the Cleaner Degreaser. * This is shown on page B1 of "The Moglice Molding Method"

Alignment
Jacking Screws are used to achieve proper saddle or tailstock alignments. They can be made to fit in the holes that the way wipers bolt up to. It is advised to use brass tipped set screws to prevent damaging ways. Using a nut to lock the jack screw into position will help locate the exact position once ready to mold.

Oil Grooving/Applying Separator
By using the 1/4"W x. 020" T x 5yds Teflon Tape you can make custom oil grooves that will mold in the Moglice. You can simply mirror the oil grooving that was already there (mirroring same dimensions that will insure matching oil ports). The tape should be applied to the bed ways. Once oil grooving is mapped out you can apply the separator. The separator simply gets spray onto the bed ways in two coats, this helps equally distribute a layer of releasing agent.

Mixing
Remove the resin from its container onto a clean mixing sheet. Then pour the hardener onto the resin, it’s important to wait for 5 slow drips from the container. With a putty knife you can start mixing the two parts together. To degas Moglice spread it thin in a clockwise motion to remove air bubbles. It also helps if you spread the material from north to south and east to west.

Application
Apply a thin adhesion layer to the bottom of the saddle and push into the surface using a putty knife. Add the rest to the bed ways crowning the material to the top of the Vee way, which allows the air to push from top to bottom. Once Moglice is spread out, you can then set the saddle into place.

After Cure
Let the Moglice cure for 18 hours. The part then can be de-molded after 18 hours and excess Moglice can be trimmed via die grinder. Remove the Teflon tape which exposes your molded in oil grooves.
We have customers that achieve this process in three days, one day for Preparation/Alignment, and two days for the oil grooving/application of Moglice. It is a very accurate way to make linear bearings with out the need of scrapping.

For Turcite B see attachment if you would like to post. Both products work great but like I said in some cases one works better than the other. This will help people figure out what is the easiest for them to apply the products. If anybody has further questions or concerns about what I stated please feel free to contact me - Cody Reeves / Mechanical/Sales Technician / Devitt Machinery Co. / (610)-494-2900 / Devitt Machinery Company | Devitt Machinery Company / Turcite | Devitt Machinery.

Kind Regards,
Cody Reeves
Mechanical/Sales Technician
Devitt Machinery Co.
4009-G Market Street
Aston, PA 19014
Ph: 610-494-2900
Cell: 484-336-3109
Fx: 610-494-7541
Devitt Machinery Company | Devitt Machinery Company
Turcite | Devitt Machinery

 

[partsproduction]

One new Idea I have been teaching is something I saw on a Fadal VMC and it is so simple. Next time you put on way wipers, put a wedge behind them so when the slide moves forward the wiper pushes the dirt off to the side, as one of my students said...like a snow plow pushes snow to the side. The old way of pushing it straight ahead let chips and dirt stay on the ways. Rich

I'd love to see a photo of that, since I have a Fadal.
Thanks,
Glen

 

[partsproduction]

On my seldom looked at Havir Shape-Rite project, I bought 1/16" phenolic and actually wanted aluminum bronze, what is that? C954? But no one offered it in 1/16" thickness. The last turnings of my thought gears has led me to phosphor bronze in spring temper, 1/16" thick and mics very parallel surfaces. The placement of many many brass 8-32 flathead screws at or below flush makes it a tedious job with much careful work. I figure to mill the oil grooves 3/16" wide by .040" deep. The choice of either aluminum bronze or phosphor bronze in spring temper is based on it's ability to wear well, of course.

The turcite in one of my CNC lathes has proven that concept to me, but there are stories about corners peeling and bad applications.