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Will I miss the handwheels on a VMC?

wehnelt

Plastic
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Location
California
I’m a physicist starting a small garage shop that’s for prototyping and ones and twos only. I’m deciding between a haas mini mill and a Trak DPM. I’m quite used to manual machining and have done some CNC work as well. I really like the convenience of handwheels, but a tool changer seems very useful too. The tool setter and touch probe are also extremely nice to have. I’ve heard varying opinions on whether or not I’ll be missing the handwheels. If you could only have one of the two machines and you never made more than 5 of anything, what would you get?
 

rklopp

Diamond
Joined
Feb 27, 2001
Location
Redwood City, CA USA
I had a Deckel FP2NC for 16 years with hand wheels and never used them. The MPG wheel and feed buttons were indispensable on the other hand. My new VMC has no hand wheels and I do not miss them even for 1-off work. The tool changer, full enclosure, chip auger, and flood coolant are godsends.
 

guythatbrews

Stainless
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
Never thought about missing the handwheels. Never had a turning or machining center that had handwheels. After all there is the MPG when you need it. I use MDI for moves whenever it makes sense anyway.

Manual machines still have their place. IMO unless your one and two piece prototypes are too complicated for a manual machine CNC will not be faster. No matter how good you are on CNC you can't beat a manual for one offs or small qtys on simple stuff. Get your handwheel fix on that stuff.
 

wehnelt

Plastic
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Location
California
Never thought about missing the handwheels. Never had a turning or machining center that had handwheels. After all there is the MPG when you need it. I use MDI for moves whenever it makes sense anyway.

Manual machines still have their place. IMO unless your one and two piece prototypes are too complicated for a manual machine CNC will not be faster. No matter how good you are on CNC you can't beat a manual for one offs or small qtys on simple stuff. Get your handwheel fix on that stuff.
That's sorta the thing. I can't fit both a VMC and a manual machine in my tiny garage. I've gotta pick one. I suppose I could fit both a VMC and a tiny benchtop mill like a Sieg X3 in, but not a bridgeport.
 

Jhn3:16

Plastic
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Location
Central VA USA
On a CNC like the Mini Mill you will find that the MPG and JOG features will let you operate just like a manual machine.

I don't think you will miss the handwheels given all the features you would be gaining. Now learning to program and run one off parts might be another story!

Good Luck!
 

guythatbrews

Stainless
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
That's sorta the thing. I can't fit both a VMC and a manual machine in my tiny garage. I've gotta pick one. I suppose I could fit both a VMC and a tiny benchtop mill like a Sieg X3 in, but not a bridgeport.
Well if manual or cnc is mutually exclusive i believe the question is how can you more efficiently make your mix of parts. You can get by without handwheels but if you will be doing complicated profiles or surfacing it's very tough to get by wo cnc.
 

M.B. Naegle

Diamond
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
Conroe, TX USA
IMO a retrofit knee mill is a good middle ground if you're already familiar and happy with manual knee milling, but there are serious drawbacks. I think a more accurate question isn't what you'll miss from a knee mill, but what you'll miss not having a VMC. True you don't have the hands-on aspect of making simple parts, but that's only because it's a different way of making simple parts. Most holdouts against VMC's do so because they are not familiar with programming enough to be able to tap out simple commands quickly, or keep their programs and set-ups organized well enough that it's easy to be super dynamic with yours tasks. A lot of the speed of using a manual comes from having your vise or indexer right there trammed in and ready to go, or having your tools in a rack 2 feet away from the spindle. Apply that same logic to a VMC and become ultra-familiar with the control and you're set.

Now that said, I too am a proponent of keeping manual mills in the shop, but If I had to choose between them? The one thing we really must have our Bridgeport for is it's table/knee/turret configuration makes it fantastic at getting ahold of odd or large parts for small operations. Some of it you can do in the VMC with some creative fixturing, but ultimately faster and more ridged to do on the knee mill. At one time we had 6 vertical knee mills around the shop. After we got into VMC's that number went down to one knee will with a 2 axis Trak control because for the jobs they excel at, that's all we needed. We also have a jig bore and a horizontal with a vertical head that I use for certain jobs that the time isn't so much an issue as I would rather not stop the other machines from chugging out parts. I'm trying to get the horizontal tooled up to make gears because for one odd gear, I wouldn't want to set up the VMC or bother with the program, but that same time and resources applied to the manual mill cost less in their inception and age better, even though it takes more spindle and man hours. At home I have a little manual round ram Bridgeport. Any more than that would be a waste for how it's used, so there really is no right answer for everyone. Each machine has a place and you just have to consider your space jobs and skills, and if changing any of that space jobs and skills would help or hinder your quality and output at the end of the day.
 

kb0thn

Stainless
Joined
May 15, 2008
Location
Winona, MN, USA
You won't miss the hand wheel. Learn a tiny bit of G and M code and you can do pretty much anything you would do with a hand wheel in one line of code. Machine will have a MDI (Machine Direct Interface or something) mode where you can type in lines of code and run it. So you can type "G1 F10 X-1Y-1" and it will go in a straight line at 10 inches per minute to -1,-1.

Some machines have better MDI interfaces than others. I have a CNC knee mill that they "tuned" the interface, it seems, to make MDI really nice.Things like G53 being modal. LinuxCNC seems ever better. Easy one touch set work coordinates. And ability to arrow up into MDI history. My modern Mazak SmoothG machines kind of suck in MDI mode. No history and I haven't figured out how to run multiple blocks at once.

The comments above talk about MPG. That is a hand wheel (typically on the front panel or as a pendant on a curly cord) that lets you jog around a single axis. Most machines have these. But I found that some production machines do not have it. I had a Chiron VMC with Fanuc control and it didn't have a MPG. I've never been a huge user of the MPG, but not having it at all I found to be quite awkward.
 

Mike Henry

Titanium
Joined
Aug 18, 2001
Location
Batavia, IL USA
Get a decent pendant for whatever mill you buy and you'll pretty quickly lose the need for handwheels. I'm in a similar situation to you and use the pendant frequently to clean up rough stock.
 








 
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