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Would lengthy blackouts create new manufacturing opportunities?

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
We can barely avoid blackout with the grid we have now and...

If you need 1,000kWh electric power per month (the current average), then you will need 1,000/36 panels = 28 solar panels. A single 300w panel measures 3.5 feet by 5 feet so you will need nearly 400 square feet of roof space to install a system of this size, and you should expect to pay around $22,000 for the installation and equipment. and then add maintenance and repair.

400SF = 20 x20' .and this is a roof facing the right way, south. likely only half one's roof faces that way and many houses don't have a south-facing roof.
That average electric usage is with most homes using fossil fuel for home heating. Adding home heating would about double the demand, so we likely need close to 30x30' (28.3x 28.3) space, facing south.

Cold hard facts nobody seems/wants to tell.
 
Last edited:

Ries

Diamond
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Location
Edison Washington USA
I am dubious that there is some kind of global conspiracy to somehow make gas illegal.
The simple truth is that in the first quarter of 2022, oil and gas companies made gigantic profits.
Shell, alone, made $9 Billion profit in 3 months this year.
They are perfectly happy with high gas prices, they make more money that way.
The ten cheapest gas prices in the world are all dictatorships where the government subsidizes gas to keep the population from revolting.
If you want cheap gas, Venezuela, Libya, and Russian are all good destinations.
We live in a capitalist country in the USA, and gas prices are based on global daily trading prices.
 

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
West Unity, Ohio
This just in my INBOX today:




MEC - click for website

You may have seen reports about electric reliability issues facing Michigan this summer. Here’s what that means for MEC:

The electric grid is a complicated and connected system with many players. MEC does our part by connecting the wires from the high voltage transmission lines to your home, but there are others you don’t generally hear about. One such player is a grid operator, which is an independent, third-party entity that manages the nation’s electric grid. These operators ensure the system works efficiently and reliably, and they predict and control the supply of electricity. Last April, one of our regional operators, MISO, announced the results of their annual generation audit that determines if there is sufficient supply to meet demand. The results for this summer are concerning. Nine northern states, including Michigan, are 1,200 megawatts short of the supply needed to keep the lights on when demand is highest. That equals 876,000 households.

If temperatures soar this summer, MISO could require blackouts to control electric load. If they do, we will have to comply.

What is driving the shortfall? Simply put, the power grid is changing. Primarily, coal and nuclear are retiring and being replaced mainly by weather-dependent renewable energy. The challenge placed on the grid is that for every megawatt of coal and nuclear that is retired, at least 2 megawatts (often more) of solar and 10 megawatts of wind are needed to replace that supply. This is because renewables need the right sun and wind to generate electricity whereas coal and nuclear plants can run more consistently. Therefore, more renewables are needed to make up for the times they can’t run. Additionally, it is impossible to permit a new coal plant, new nuclear is extremely cost prohibitive, and natural gas is becoming more challenging to permit. Our options are limited.

There is the potential for this problem to get worse. While we are already facing power supply shortages, nearly 10% of Michigan’s generating fleet of coal and nuclear plants are slated for early retirement in the next three years. We can’t let power plant closures get ahead of the new generation that must be built to replace them.

You can help by making your voice heard with legislators. Scroll down for more information on our Voices for Cooperative Power program.

The purpose of this email isn’t to scare you; it’s to prepare you and help you understand what we’re dealing with.

We will also continue our hard work of monitoring, maintaining, and upgrading our equipment as needed to ensure that MEC’s infrastructure can handle our demand. And we will do our part to make sure that our elected officials understand the impact of premature plant closures.

Sincerely,
Robert Hance, President/CEO
WE NEED YOUR HELP.
MEC has partnered with other electric co-ops from around the state and country to utilize Voices for Cooperative Power (VCP), a network of co-op members working together to express our concerns with policymakers.

I encourage you to sign up and participate.
Voice for Cooperative Power - United for stronger communitees
Please join the movement by signing up with VCP today and share your co-op story!
©2022 Midwest Energy & Communications
60590 Decatur Rd • Cassopolis, MI 49031 • USA
800.492.5989 • [email protected]



-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
West Unity, Ohio
"..blackouts due to the response of fake climate change..."

Explain how high temperatures in texas are fake, please. Is Obama re-calibrating all the texas thermometers, or maybe biden is using up all the texas power grid to steal their guns. New manufacturing idea: make a muzzle to stop push-posts like yours here.
If you have any interest in the other side of the story, I recommend that you follow Tony Heller for a while.
I have only seen his youtube vids that someone posts regularly on another site, but here is his website.
I am constantly amazed at the evidence this guy produces!
Unlike some right wing windbag with a following that likes to just call lefty's names and whatnot - without ever actually dooing anything of value of their own - this guy is the real deal.



---------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 

standardparts

Diamond
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
And at the risk of getting the "bad boy off topic" demerit points...But since the possibility of a hot summer in a Midwestern state was brought up let me mention this:

If your running an old beater vehicle with A/C that works and uses R134 you just might want to snag a few cans for topping off purposes. Yeah R134. Don't wait.
 

Trueturning

Diamond
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
This just in my INBOX today:




MEC - click for website
You may have seen reports about electric reliability issues facing Michigan this summer. Here’s what that means for MEC:

The electric grid is a complicated and connected system with many players. MEC does our part by connecting the wires from the high voltage transmission lines to your home, but there are others you don’t generally hear about. One such player is a grid operator, which is an independent, third-party entity that manages the nation’s electric grid. These operators ensure the system works efficiently and reliably, and they predict and control the supply of electricity. Last April, one of our regional operators, MISO, announced the results of their annual generation audit that determines if there is sufficient supply to meet demand. The results for this summer are concerning. Nine northern states, including Michigan, are 1,200 megawatts short of the supply needed to keep the lights on when demand is highest. That equals 876,000 households.

If temperatures soar this summer, MISO could require blackouts to control electric load. If they do, we will have to comply.

What is driving the shortfall? Simply put, the power grid is changing. Primarily, coal and nuclear are retiring and being replaced mainly by weather-dependent renewable energy. The challenge placed on the grid is that for every megawatt of coal and nuclear that is retired, at least 2 megawatts (often more) of solar and 10 megawatts of wind are needed to replace that supply. This is because renewables need the right sun and wind to generate electricity whereas coal and nuclear plants can run more consistently. Therefore, more renewables are needed to make up for the times they can’t run. Additionally, it is impossible to permit a new coal plant, new nuclear is extremely cost prohibitive, and natural gas is becoming more challenging to permit. Our options are limited.

There is the potential for this problem to get worse. While we are already facing power supply shortages, nearly 10% of Michigan’s generating fleet of coal and nuclear plants are slated for early retirement in the next three years. We can’t let power plant closures get ahead of the new generation that must be built to replace them.

You can help by making your voice heard with legislators. Scroll down for more information on our Voices for Cooperative Power program.

The purpose of this email isn’t to scare you; it’s to prepare you and help you understand what we’re dealing with.

We will also continue our hard work of monitoring, maintaining, and upgrading our equipment as needed to ensure that MEC’s infrastructure can handle our demand. And we will do our part to make sure that our elected officials understand the impact of premature plant closures.

Sincerely,
Robert Hance, President/CEO
WE NEED YOUR HELP.
MEC has partnered with other electric co-ops from around the state and country to utilize Voices for Cooperative Power (VCP), a network of co-op members working together to express our concerns with policymakers.

I encourage you to sign up and participate.
Voice for Cooperative Power - United for stronger communitees
Please join the movement by signing up with VCP today and share your co-op story!
©2022 Midwest Energy & Communications
60590 Decatur Rd • Cassopolis, MI 49031 • USA
800.492.5989 • [email protected]



-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
A good breakdown here. It is refreshing for a candid review of these things to explain this. Texas was a big problem and these grids being maxed out so much seem to be a problem overall. Any State that experiences this is in good company it seems. Solutions are more productive to consider rather than dissing a State with these infrastructure and power generation requirements.
There are these challenges as laid out in the article from experts on the grid. Adding the charging capacity of the growing EV market will bring growing needs.
 

quadzilla87

Plastic
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
This just in my INBOX today:




MEC - click for website
You may have seen reports about electric reliability issues facing Michigan this summer. Here’s what that means for MEC:

The electric grid is a complicated and connected system with many players. MEC does our part by connecting the wires from the high voltage transmission lines to your home, but there are others you don’t generally hear about. One such player is a grid operator, which is an independent, third-party entity that manages the nation’s electric grid. These operators ensure the system works efficiently and reliably, and they predict and control the supply of electricity. Last April, one of our regional operators, MISO, announced the results of their annual generation audit that determines if there is sufficient supply to meet demand. The results for this summer are concerning. Nine northern states, including Michigan, are 1,200 megawatts short of the supply needed to keep the lights on when demand is highest. That equals 876,000 households.

If temperatures soar this summer, MISO could require blackouts to control electric load. If they do, we will have to comply.

What is driving the shortfall? Simply put, the power grid is changing. Primarily, coal and nuclear are retiring and being replaced mainly by weather-dependent renewable energy. The challenge placed on the grid is that for every megawatt of coal and nuclear that is retired, at least 2 megawatts (often more) of solar and 10 megawatts of wind are needed to replace that supply. This is because renewables need the right sun and wind to generate electricity whereas coal and nuclear plants can run more consistently. Therefore, more renewables are needed to make up for the times they can’t run. Additionally, it is impossible to permit a new coal plant, new nuclear is extremely cost prohibitive, and natural gas is becoming more challenging to permit. Our options are limited.

There is the potential for this problem to get worse. While we are already facing power supply shortages, nearly 10% of Michigan’s generating fleet of coal and nuclear plants are slated for early retirement in the next three years. We can’t let power plant closures get ahead of the new generation that must be built to replace them.

You can help by making your voice heard with legislators. Scroll down for more information on our Voices for Cooperative Power program.

The purpose of this email isn’t to scare you; it’s to prepare you and help you understand what we’re dealing with.

We will also continue our hard work of monitoring, maintaining, and upgrading our equipment as needed to ensure that MEC’s infrastructure can handle our demand. And we will do our part to make sure that our elected officials understand the impact of premature plant closures.

Sincerely,
Robert Hance, President/CEO
WE NEED YOUR HELP.
MEC has partnered with other electric co-ops from around the state and country to utilize Voices for Cooperative Power (VCP), a network of co-op members working together to express our concerns with policymakers.

I encourage you to sign up and participate.
Voice for Cooperative Power - United for stronger communitees
Please join the movement by signing up with VCP today and share your co-op story!
©2022 Midwest Energy & Communications
60590 Decatur Rd • Cassopolis, MI 49031 • USA
800.492.5989 • [email protected]



-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
So transitioning to renewables takes 2-10 times more capacity to replace coal or nuclear? Are they 2-10 times cheaper than coal or nuclear?
 

DDoug

Diamond
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Location
NW Pa
When the truck's windows are up my dog gets too hot and when he's too hot he refuses to push the start/stop on the CNC. Guess that makes this a reply about manufacturing opportunities.
If you "drive 55" with all the winders down, you'll make the dog very happy, and get rid of a bunch of springtime shedding....:D
 

Freedommachine

Hot Rolled
Joined
May 13, 2020
If you "drive 55" with all the winders down, you'll make the dog very happy, and get rid of a bunch of springtime shedding....:D
That's me lol. My old car finally died, daily driving my yj wrangler now. Even if it had AC I couldn't use it. Need every inch pound of torque the 4 angry squirrels under the hood can push out just to turn the tires. Removable doors are good for ventilation tho.
 

DDoug

Diamond
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Location
NW Pa
Back to the OP.
I toured a "Melt Shop" a few years back.
They have a 50 ton Arc furnace, feeding into a 100 ton
mixing arc & induction furnace.

I asked if they have to communicate with the local power plant whenever they light up.

The tour guide indicated that no, they don't, however they had a large LED display indicating something dealing with input power (voltage maybe) and everyone was to keep an eye on it, and not exceed
some number.
I was told that during the hot summers, they have to slow down somewhat, as the grid is overloaded.

So yes, manuf will slow down.
 

Big B

Diamond
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Location
Michigan, USA
QT: ("There is a global effort underway to radically transform the way humans exist on earth.)

It is called a big war, and I hope we don't have one.

A big surprise on the grid is when we try to add home heating, Industrial manufacturing, plus all the cars and trucks, It is very likely we will need to increase the grid by 120% to avoid blackouts.
With that many windmills and solar panels, there won't be any room for people.
I seriously think the people pushing non-fossil fuel have considered that






g
People pushing fossil fuel are also heavily into alternative energies. Have you ever been to the southwest where the sun shines a lot? There are solar farms there that are utility scale and not just some homeowners, although there are more and more homeowners going solar too. It's too late to put the genie back in the bottle for good reason. I makes sense to use the sun for energy instead of burning fossil fuels.
 

Big B

Diamond
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Location
Michigan, USA
We can barely avoid blackout with the grid we have now and...

If you need 1,000kWh electric power per month (the current average), then you will need 1,000/36 panels = 28 solar panels. A single 300w panel measures 3.5 feet by 5 feet so you will need nearly 400 square feet of roof space to install a system of this size, and you should expect to pay around $22,000 for the installation and equipment. and then add maintenance and repair.

400SF = 20 x20' .and this is a roof facing the right way, south. likely only half one's roof faces that way and many houses don't have a south-facing roof.
That average electric usage is with most homes using fossil fuel for home heating. Adding home heating would about double the demand, so we likely need close to 30x30' (28.3x 28.3) space, facing south.

Cold hard facts nobody seems/wants to tell.
News flash. You don't need a roof to mount solar panels on. They can be mounted on the ground and often are. Where did you get the idea that solar panels can only be mounted on a roof? I won't post my thoughts on where you get that from.
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
News flash. You don't need a roof to mount solar panels on. They can be mounted on the ground and often are. Where did you get the idea that solar panels can only be mounted on a roof? I won't post my thoughts on where you get that from.
Because that is one place where it/they might be put. We could have a 1/4 mile space for every one-mile space of residential homes. Figure a 20' x 20' space for every small /average home.
 

michiganbuck

Diamond
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Last edited:

gustafson

Diamond
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
People's Republic
A good breakdown here. It is refreshing for a candid review of these things to explain this. Texas was a big problem and these grids being maxed out so much seem to be a problem overall. Any State that experiences this is in good company it seems. Solutions are more productive to consider rather than dissing a State with these infrastructure and power generation requirements.
There are these challenges as laid out in the article from experts on the grid. Adding the charging capacity of the growing EV market will bring growing needs.
Uhh, lessee, who is that who is publishing that? Let me look it up, please wait...........

Yeah that is convincing
 








 
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