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"Wreck" Update

beckley23

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Approx 3 weeks ago work on the "wreck" came to a screeching halt. Everything had been removed from the bed, and I got my first good inspection of the ways. All of the ways have wear, not surprising, but the amount of wear on the inside face of the front way, is approx .015" on the face, or .023" approx straight down. In addition, I can't properly manipulate my 48" camelback straight edge to get a good spotting. After some consideration, I called and got quotes, from 2 grinding shops, for getting the bed ground. Let's just say that grinding is out of the question, it ain't gonna happen. Before anybody suggests Commerce in Dallas, they were at 2000.00+.
A couple of things to consider in my decision making process, and the primary is; I don't need this machine for my shop. Another is that space is at a premium, and I don't like machines crammed together. I need to be able to get carts, forklifts, etc , in between machines. The only saving graces of this lathe are; the headstock, gearbox and electrics seem to be good and it is a 30" 'er, everything else is crap.
Decision time; do I scrap it out, or do I scrape it in. I'll need a special straight edge that I can manipulate, I'll need a larger surface plate to spot this straight edge for scraping, and I'll need V blocks for the 65* V ways, plus the will power to do this again. I've already scraped one hardened bed, and it's not something I look forward too.
One thing else; every time I use my good EE, I just can't bear the thought of scrapping this one out, knowing that it can be just as good or better with a little bit of work.
After 3 weeks of pondering this problem, I reached the decision to scrape this lathe, and items have been purchased to this end.
The procedure will be the one I used to recondition the CK, the inside flat way gets scraped first followed by the inside V way, followed by the outside flat way, followed by the outside face of the outside V way, then the inside face. The inside face will most likely get some special treatment to remove the bulk of the material by means other than scraping, this aspect has yet to be finalized, but I do have a couple of ideas. Then the carriage and related members, then the tailstock.
Harry
 

220swift

Stainless
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Location
Montana
Harry

Please take pictures so the rest of us can follow along.

I find it fascinating and can't imagine the work (both mental & physical) it takes to scrape in something that size.


Hal
 

blackboat

Stainless
Joined
Nov 16, 2001
Location
Conyers, GA
Dang, I kept reading, waiting for the part where you were going to give up and ask for someone to come get it:)

I think I would be looking at rigging some sort of sled to use even an angle grinder for roughing work on that one way. And making sure the Biax is all tuned and ready to go.

Out of curiosity Harry, have you ever had Schmiede in TN quote on regrinding? Know nothing about them past their website, just had turned them up looking for grinders a few years back.

Good luck,
Rob
 

Knguyen

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 16, 2003
Location
Bergen, NJ.
Harry,
The amount of wear is pretty deep, I wonder the hardened layer will remain after the grinding and scraping . Any way, I am sure there is great interest in following your project and see how it is done by the master. Please take lots of pictures along the way. Any thought of making a CD/ DVD of the project . I have a 30" and am in the slow process of gathering all the tools , tips (and courage) to recondition it. Thanks for posting.
Khanh
 

beckley23

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Schmiede in Tullahoma was the other quote at 1850.00. At least they gave it an honest effort, Commerce whipped the quote out off the seat of his pants.
I don't question the reasoning behind the quotes, and grinding the bed would be undoubtedly easier and most likely better than what I'm able to do scraping, especially regarding the flatness of the surface, in the long term life of the rebuild. There is another factor, often overlooked, at least I've never heard it discussed directly, and that is there is a finite dollar value on the machine. We've all seen the prices on ebay, basically in the mid 4 figures, and heard the stories of auctions, a little higher or better. I'm only going to pour so much money in this machine, which should be somewhere in the mid 4 figures or less. I have to consider the future expenses, just to get this "wreck" operational. I know it needs at least a bearing in the apron, all the bearings for the TA, and the carriage gibs, most of the feed screws, possibly the apron pump, new meter units, and the list could go on. Taken individually, these items don't cost much, but when all is said and done you've got a big number; and this is par for the course. By the time I get this machine operational the only way I'm going to get my money back, is to work it.

Rob, I've been thinking about the sled idea for years, and I just may do it. I bought a turret lathe slide tool on ebay last week with this in mind. At the very least, I'll have another piece of tooling for my J&L turret lathe.

Pictures, I'll post a few. Remember that the reconditioning process is a well thought out plan, scraping is straight forward grunt work. The key to the process I'm using, listed above, is the scraping order of the bed. The inside ways are 1st, specifically the flat way. Once I have a "datum plane" on the flat way, I can develop the "datum planes" of the inside V way. The only tools I'll use are the V blocks, the level, the straight edge and 2 matched gauge blocks. The V and gauge blocks are for the level. These 2 ways will take the bulk of the time, because so much depends on them. I can assure you that there are a lot checks and cross checks. The outer ways go a whole lot faster, mainly because I can use a DTI for a lot of the checks. The process works, this is the way I did the CK a few years ago.

About the CK. The lathe has been leveled twice, once when I reconditioned it, and once when I relocated it shortly after the reconditioning. Level has not been checked since, about 4 years. The lathe has been used occassionally until this past summer, when it really started earning its keep. I had several jobs that required a good portion of the bed, and I never had to adjust the tailstock transverse setting, except on the last job, and then it was a couple tenths.

Harry
 

Alain

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Location
New Brunswick, Canada
Hand scrapeing and reconditioning

Harry

I read all your articles in HSM and was very impressed with the work you did on the Monarch. I purchased a Monarch CK with an extra bed, 4' straight edge (Monarch as well) and made the tools to slowly bring the lathe back to fair working order.

After swapping beds and a ton of cleaning and some hand scrapeing, it's is working ok but I still have a 'ways' to go... pun intended here...

This may be a hobby but I would not have purchased this lathe or be this interested in machining if it were not for people like you. Keep up the posts! I love the adventure (my wife curses them).

Thanks

Al
 

amoretti

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Location
Thermopolis, Wyo
Possible bed grinder

Last year I had my 10ee reground/rebuilt by Rick Arneberg in Roberts WI. rarnebergatyahoodotcom
You might get a quote from him.

He did a good job for me and I thought his price was quite reasonable.

Cheers, John In Wyo
 

beckley23

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Since my first posting in this topic a bit of progress has been made. I have purchased a 24" X 36" X 5" surface plate, grade is initially B, and the last calibration was sometime in the '90's. It's a gamble, but I think things will work out, at least the new straight edge I just made seems to be flat and straight, plus the other straight edges I have are checking out. The swivel test, with several straight edges, was performed at several locations, and I haven't noticed anything unusual or strange. The new straight edge is made from 1-1/4" X 2-1/4" X 48" Meehanite, and this one I can control on the V ways. I have also made made 2 sets of V blocks, the bar stock was about 7" long, and I said "what the heck". If one pair goes bad, that was your practice set. As it is, both sets are good, but they are not matched to each other. This was the first time I got use my 135 LB B&S 3 axis toolmakers vise, which has been sitting on the bench for several years. If you ever run across one of these vises, at a reasonable price, I would recommend a buy. They seem to be far better quality, and are definitely more rigid than the ones I see in the catalogs.

I am toying with the idea of making a sled to fit the inside ways, and lining the slides with Multifil 426, so that I can basically plane the inside face of the front V way. The sled will make use of "slide tool" from a turret lathe, and for those of you that are not familiar with a slide tool I'm including a picture.

A survey of the bed reveals at least .003" wear in each of the flat ways, and the inside flat has scoring, partly from the carriage dropping down , bad apron oil pump, and chips getting caught under the carriage as well as the tailstock. The scoring runs from about 3" in front of the headstock to the right end of the bed. The inside V way has about .0025" wear from what I could determine with level readings, and the outside face of the front V way has about the same.

The motor and backgear has been reinstalled in the base, mainly to get stuff off my floor. The motor shop got the critter nests out of the interior and serviced it.

The slide tool;
Slide Tool

The straight edge's working surface,it's sitting on the surface plate, it's not a very good picture, but:
e18.jpg


The V blocks, they were made several weeks ago from CRS, a seem to have stabilized, they'll be checked again before use;
e19.jpg


A view of the inside flat way looking left showing the scoring. I have very lightly take a scraping pass;
e20.jpg


Harry
 
Last edited by a moderator:

beckley23

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Slide tools are like boring heads except they are more heavily constructed. The one shown is a shank mount, obviously, they also come in flange mounts. There is a locking lever on the other side you don't see, and it is gibbed. This one is a screw feed, but I have a couple others that have a long lead spiral feed for rapid action. I use those for undercutting, snap ring grooves, etc.

The lathe's leveling was tweaked today, so that one end of the bubble is touching a "0" reference mark both longitudinally and transversely. That will be the reference mark for the entire project. Level was checked on both inside ways, at the headstock end only, and they agreed . The level will only be used on top of the blocks, and the bed has divided into sections corresponding to half the level length. There are the white reference marks between the front ways for this purpose. The V and gauge blocks have been referenced for L & R, and scraping has begun. It's going to be long project, I think this bed is a lot harder than my other EE and the CK beds. There is one pecularity of inside ways of Monarch lathes that I first noticed when I scraped the CK, which is; the bed section under the headstock is soft. When scraping and going from one section to the other, the pressure and approach angle has to be altered.
Harry
 
Joined
May 7, 2002
Location
Sidney, ohio
EE bed

Harry I have about six used EE beds here and I am sure one of them has to be in very good condition. If you are interested in a used bed let me know and I can pull them out and have them checked. $500.00 plus shipping.

Scott Foster
Monarch lathes
937-492-4111
 

beckley23

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
A bit more on technique.
The first picture is the level on a 2' long parallel, the parallel is on the gage blocks. The blocks are on either side of the most worn section of the inside flat way, and are on scraped surfaces. This allows me to monitor the progress of going straight down. Progress is also monitored with the level on the blocks at a closer spacing. At the present time the headstock end is down .0003-.0005. I had the same problem on the CK, and is mostly because of the soft bed section, I got a bit over aggressive on the 1st couple of cycles. By the time the bed is finished this will be taken care of.
This type of monitoring will be performed throughout the project, and as this progresses the spacings and locations of the blocks will be altered in between the bed markings, and towards the end the level will be directly on the bed as another check
The second picture is the spotting of the way right after the 1st picture was taken. If you look closely there is spotting at the top of the picture, about 4' from the left end of the bed, and the most worn section is obvious.

e21.jpg


e22.jpg

Harry
 

beckley23

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Grand Canyon or Great Rift Valley

Take your choice of titles. The scraping is going very slowly, but progress is being made. Scraping a hard bed is not a fast operation. You can't really plow the iron off, nor can long roughing strokes be used, the tool just skids. So it is basically all finish scraping, and the more you scrape off, flattening the surface, the longer each cycle takes and the more the blades have to be sharpened. I've tried long strokes and finally settled on something close to 3/16" maybe less. Each cycle consists of spotting scraping, stoning and cleaning with denatured alcohol. After 3 or 4 spottings the straight edge has to have blueing applied, which causes a problem on the first spotting-smearing. Right now it's not a major problem but as the end approaches, I'm really going to have to pay attention to how much blueing goes on the straight edge so that I don't get spotting messed up by smearing. Right now it's a help due to the amount of material to be removed, and considering the small amount removed in each cycle. My guess it is 15-20 cycles to remove .001", just about my limit for a day, mostly because my back can't stand anymore.
The closer I get to completion, the more the progress has to be checked with the level. Presently, what has been scraped is with in .0002" in the 4' length of the straight edge.
The Grand Canyon or Great Rift Valley is located in the most deeply scored section of the inside flat way. In addition it is canted due to the way carriage wore. At present approx .0066" has been scraped off the way. The valley is the dull unscraped area between the outer edges, the scraping shows up as a brighter sparklely area surrounding the worn area. At present it is about 7" or so long.
e23.jpg

Harry
 

beckley23

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Finally got the inside flat way
finished today. Total amount removed is .0083", and the "Great Rift Valley" constituted a good portion. I didn't get it totally removed, but the remmant won't interfere with anything. It is centered about 25" from the headstock end of the bed. If I have done my trig right I have about .0025" to remove from each face of the inside V way, to get the proper amount of drop to maintain the relationship between the inside ways, and hopefully not have to scrape the headstock for that reason.
The level is a very interesting tool. We mostly use it as a comparative tool, but it can be used as a measuring tool, in a fashion, especially when used in the manner I'm using it on blocks. The level is 15" long and calibrated .0005"/ft. When the blocks are on the end, 1 division of movement is .0004", if the blocks are 6" apart that same movement is .00025". I think you get the idea. If not this will become clear as I progress.
You can also estimate, fairly accurately, the distance the bubble is from the reference mark(s). Admittedly it is a judgement call whether it is .0002, .00025, or .0003", and I do, do a bit of head scratching.
Anyway, the inside flat way is within .00025" one end to the other, according to the level. Readings were take every 3-3/4".
I also figured out how to rough scrape hardened iron when I got to the last 11" of the bed. Increase the stroke and speed, and bear down as hard as you can. It will wear you out, but the material does come off. I didn't use the straight edge to spot, just went at it, and check with DTI every so often. I stopped roughing when I had about .002" to go, mainly because I didn't know how deep the chatter marks were.
Some more pictures.

Remnants of "The Great Rift Valley". The first was taken last Friday, and the second one was taken today. There were 3 scraping cycles between the 2, not much of a difference,. The squiggly marks in the 2nd picture are scraper marks, I'll see if I can hide them.

e24.jpg


e26.jpg


Level on blocks checking the inside V way. Notice the blue mark between the bed ways on the right side. That is where the bed hardness changes. Under the headstock is soft, beyond it is hard. It does present some difficulties.

e25.jpg


Checking the rear way way against the inside flat way. Notice the shim stock under the level. That is a .004" shim and it moved the bubble about 12 divisions.

e27.jpg

Harry
 

JRouche

Stainless
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
So. Cal.
Remnants of "The Great Rift Valley". The first was taken last Friday, and the second one was taken today. There were 3 scraping cycles between the 2, not much of a difference,.
Harry

Hey Harry, sorry for interrupting the great progress report..

You actually can see the amount of "flatness" achieved. Im sure you staring at the bed has you seeing ALL the imperfections but.. On the first photo you can get an idea of the almost concaved depression "shadowing of light" and on the second photo you can see its oh so much more uniformly flat with just the three very shallow lines. You can tell they are shallow cause if you just look left or right they are scraped out and flat. They wont have any effect on bearing at all, maybe just hold a slight amount of way lube is all.

All Im trying to say is GREAT JOB!! The scraping is excellent, from the pictures and good photos. This by the way is being sucked up onto disc for prosperity.. JRouche
 

beckley23

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
I'm just about finished with the 1st 4' of the inside face of the inside V way. This is very difficult surface to spot, it is 5/16" approx wide and the straight edge weighs 40 LBS, and to scrape. I can only scrape from 2 directions, on the flat way I was able to scrape from 4 directions. I'll get the inside face finished then scrape the outside face.
One of the mains considerations when employing the sequence I'm using is to sure that I'm scraping straight down. The only reference for these surfaces is the section under the headstock and approx the 1st 8-10" beyond. The only check I have is the level, and then it can only be used with confidence for the distance mentioned above, and it must agree with the flat way, naturally.
Another problem I'm having is shop temperature and the level. I started noticing this about half way through the flat way. I would leave in the evening with the level reading one thing, and check the first thing again the next morning, and it had moved .0005-.001". I also noticed that problem resolved itself after the shop had gotten over 50-55* F, about 3 hours later. I have infrared gas heaters, and I don't heat when I'm closed. The most unusal aspect of this is that the temperature seems to effect the headstock end more than the tailstock end. Maybe it's the location in the shop where I'm doing this, and maybe it's because it's winter, I did the CK in the middle to late summer, and in a different shop location. Anyway whatever the reason, it is another factor to consider.
More pictures.

Checking progress on the inside V way, when the readings agree in this position and about 10" further to the right, I'll start on the last 11" of this face. I've got good spotting for most of the length, but I had to make a correction in where I scrape in order to drop the right side a bit. The soft section of the bed is a problem maker. At this point the way has been lowered approx .004", need 1-2 tenths more.
e28.jpg


A chip in the bed, I didn't do this, approx centered over the first sheer bridge.
e29.jpg


The handwheel has been repaired. I picked it up in late December. It is shown on the welding alignment fixture that I made for the welder. The missing spoke was cut from the plate. The 2 holes, there a 2 that you don't see, by the rim are for screws to locate the rim in relation to the shaft. The shaft has a stop collar for correct elevation of the hub. I still need to clean up the welds and blend them.
e30.jpg

Harry
 








 
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