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XRF testing vintage vehicles

80cui

Plastic
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Just curious. If an XRF gun was held to the crank cases of a supposedly rare vintage motorcycle, would the XRF determine if the crank case composition was modern material (reproduction)?
Genuine crank cases are porous and also corrode into white powder. Old Indian cases are shocking.

Should auction houses be using XRF?

Photo just for laughs......
R.289bc6115336ee2f94bd9e94b26571e7
 

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
80cui:

You raise an interesting question and it made me aware of how far testing instruments have come. I will admit to having no knowledge of what "XRF guns" were until you began this thread. A quick online search enlightened me. XRF = X Ray Fluorescence. The claim is made by makes of these hand-held "XRF Guns" that the composition of a wide variety of materials including metals, composite materials and even wood can be determined in place, with no taking samples to a lab. It sounds like something from science fiction, a bit too good to be true, being able to get an on-the-spot determination of a material's composition.

Assuming the XRF instruments are reasonably accurate, and since they do not require taking a sample of the material (i.e., "non invasive testing"), my opinion is an auction house would be doing their 'due diligence' in using XRF guns. As is well known, forgeries of paintings have made it past the so-called 'experts' and been sold for huge sums of money. Obviously, something like the Cyclone motorcycle in your picture would be a candidate for at least partially 'counterfeiting'. I was always intrigued by the Cyclone engines. For their times, they were very advanced, with design & performance well beyond contemporary motorcycle engines. Their design and performance took a few decades to be equalled by most of the motorcycle engine designs from larger manufacturers.

The Cyclone was designed and built by a firm called "Joerns" in Minneapolis. I do not know the total number of engines Joerns built under the Cyclone design/name. Probably a very small number. As an extremely rare and very advanced design of motorcycle engine for its time, the Cyclone engine would be a likely thing to at least partially 'counterfeit'. I am sure with today's CMM equipment, it would be possible to produce exact working drawings of Cyclone engine parts. Reproducing those parts in this day and age, with CNC machine tools available for things like patternmaking, a set of crankcases or any other cast part could be reproduced.

Now we get to the big question: what if the counterfeit parts were made of the SAME materials or alloys as was used by Joerns way back when ? The crankcases were sand cast aluminum. Assuming someone had a Joerns/Cyclone engine with deteriorated crankcases, and assuming they used those crankcases to 'reverse engineer' new crankcases. If the same sand casting methods and same type/design of cores were used to produce the new crankcases, and the same alloy used to pour them, it could well be the equivalent of a flawless forgery of the Mona Lisa. Roll the clock back to the era when Joerns was building the Cyclone engines. Chances are they sent their patterns to a foundry that poured aluminum. The foundry may well have used loose or approximate methods of making up a 'heat' or 'melt', throwing some aluminum ingots and perhaps some alloying elements that were in common use at the time into the crucible. Even today, if we look at an ASTM (American Society for Testing Materials), or similar specification for various metal alloys, there is often a 'percentage range' for some of the alloying elements. Not exact percentages. If a person in this day and age had an XRF gun analysis of the alloy used to cast the Cyclone crankcases, they could produce a flawless reproduction (assuming they came forward and made it known that this was not an original Cyclone engine). If they followed the same path and acted like they had a working Cyclone engine/motorcycle, then they'd be offering a counterfeit (or partially counterfeit) motorcycle for sale.

I am sure XRF is well-settled and proven technology. If I were in a position to bid on a Cyclone motorcycle at auction, I would be questioning what the fancy auction houses call "the provenance". I.E., the history of the motorcycle in terms of who owned it, what modifications or rebuilds were done to it, and any other information about it. Aside from the "provenance", I'd be wondering how a Cyclone engine survived in good to excellent condition. The Cyclone motorcycles were made to be raced and pushed hard. As I recall, while they had the impressive performance figures for those engines, the engines often did not last thru a race. Given that history and the rarity of a Cyclone motorcycle, I'd be asking for all the proof I could get as to the authenticity of the motorcycle and its engine. It is akin to someone laying claim to an estate, and using DNA to determine if the claimant was legitimate or an imposter.

I've been intrigued with the Cyclone engines for years, wondering who Joerns was ( a machine shop in Minneapolis is about all I know of them). Who designed that engine and why didn't the motorcycle industry pick up on the design and use it sooner ? I suppose the answer is that side valve (aka "flathead") engines worked well enough for motorcycles sold to the public, and were a lot easier and cheaper to build.
 

plastikdreams

Diamond
Joined
May 31, 2011
Location
upstate nj
As long as you have a reference to test against or a known metalurgical makeup a xrf will be able to tell you the chemical makeup of the tested metal.
 

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
In response to 80cui's post, I wonder what he was referring to when he describes "Genuine crankcases are porous and also corrode into white powder. Old Indian crankcases are shocking..."

If that were, in fact, the case, the collections of very old American motorcycles in museums would have gone to 'white powder' ages ago. Wheels Through Time, down in Maggie Valley, NC, has an incredible collection of American motorcycles, and plenty of Indians from the start of their manufacture to the end of it in 1953. The motorcycles in their collection are all runners, and many are original, as-found. Some few years ago, several of us rode our motorcycles to Springfield, MA and visited the Indian museum owned and run by the late Esta Manthos. She had a large number of Indians from the earliest to the final production numbers. Nothing turned to white powder. At Rhinebeck one year, my wife and I went to the Antique Motorcycle meet, riding our 1978 BMW R 100/7 to get there. We saw countless antique motorcycles, some on display, some running. We browsed thru endless amounts of stuff for sale which included crankcases and other aluminum castings from different makers and years. Again, no white powder.

While it could be said that older motorcycles using the 'DeDion" design of split crankcases leaked oil at that split joint, I contend the cases are hardly 'porous'. The pouring of sound aluminum castings was a well settled thing by the 'teens. Many automobile and truck makers used a cast aluminum crankcase and bolted cast iron cylinder blocks to them. A buddy of mine has a Mack truck from the 1920's with that type engine construction. Crankcase is sound (it has the engine mounting brackets as part of the casting). No oil on the ground beyond leakage at old seals. Sand casting of aluminum was a fairly well developed thing by the time Joerns was building the Cyclone engines.

Leading up to WWI, aviation engines were being developed and the use of complex aluminum castings was developed as part of that process. I do not think that sand casting aluminum or an alloy containing aluminum is going to produce castings that turn to white powder over time or are porous to start with. Problems at the foundry (recent thread discussing molders pissing in the molding sand) might produce some batches of bad castings, but not an across the board thing.

By the 1920's, Franklin, a maker of air cooled automobile engines and aircraft engines, had done a lot of research into aluminum alloys and casting of them. Franklin was developing alloys which would be as dimensionally stable as possible, or match the coefficient of thermal expansion of different metals (such as engine valve seats). My 'old' 1978 BMW motorcycle used sand cast aluminum parts for the crankcase, transmission case, final drive case, fork sliders, oil sump, and other engine casings. No sign of anything turning to white powder. The castings bear some identification as to the casting process, possibly noting the use of Silicon in the metal.
What DOES turn to white powder over time is certain die-cast alloys, typically with a high zinc content. Aluminum castings are susceptible to corrosion, and exposure to road salt or electrolytic action (as when aluminum is bolted to steel and kept wet) would produce the white powder the OP speaks of in his post.

What I would like to learn is more about the Cyclone engine and Joerns, who made that engine.
 

JST

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2001
Location
St Louis
I think you could no longer make an undetectable copy. Leaving aside machining marks, you could not get the alloy.

I presume the originals were made "pre-bomb", and if so, you could always detect a recent copy by checking isotope ratios. "Post bomb" always have more of certain radioactive isotopes, and completely different ratios. Hence the demand for "pre-bomb" steel for scientific instruments etc, which may be the reason china is busy salvaging war grave wrecks in the ocean.

The "white powder" presumably depends on climatic condition in storage.
 

EmGo

Diamond
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Over the River and Through the Woods
I presume the originals were made "pre-bomb", and if so, you could always detect a recent copy by checking isotope ratios. "Post bomb" always have more of certain radioactive isotopes, and completely different ratios. Hence the demand for "pre-bomb" steel

Steel is made by blowing massive amounts of air or oxygen through the molten iron ore, which is now higher in isotopes than it was before 1945 so the raw steel picks it up.

Lead is a different matter, there is always a portion of uranium in fresh lead but if it was smelted a thousand years ago the u235 has had time to decay.

Neither case applies to aluminum, I think ?
 

JST

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2001
Location
St Louis
The air is not really the issue, it would be anything in dust etc that is entrained in the air. The surface of the planet now has things in it/on it that were not present pre-bomb.

It is not necessary for vast amounts of air to be blown through in order to have contamination. It is everywhere. Even in you.

The a ir carries dust, which is likely where the material gets in to steel.

Molding sand would have that dust, the "post bomb" materials are everywhere, distributed over the globe. There are many ways that it can get into the alloy aluminum.

The hard thing would be to keep it out.
 
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EmGo

Diamond
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Over the River and Through the Woods
The air is not really the issue, it would be anything in dust etc that is entrained in the air. The surface of the planet now has things in it/on it that were not present pre-bomb.

It is not necessary for vast amounts of air to be blown through in order to have contamination. It is everywhere. Even in you.

Beg to differ but possibly you need to look deeper into this ? This is not the case with either steel or lead, and as far as I know there are no other materials being touted for "preBomb" uses. Plus the atmospheric content of radioactive isotopes has gone way way down since they quit testing in air, to the point that "preBomb steel" is no longer a big deal except for very rare cases.

And I have no idea how you'd make steel without oxygen ? Is this a new process ?
 

mjr6550

Aluminum
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Location
Lansdale, PA
I think that many motorcycles of that vintage have more reproduction parts than original parts. I don't know, but perhaps that is disclosed in many cases, or knowledgeable buyer can tell.
 

80cui

Plastic
Joined
Jan 9, 2015

I have Indian crank cases stored that I have to keep an eye on, because they corrode and turn to white powder. The steel parts eat bushes and the cases are sacrificial when left neglected. I bought a Indian 741 cam cover with cams still intact. when I cleaned the lot, the cams were passable, but the cover and bushes were eaten and badly corroded into white powder.

Not mine. This 1926 motor sold locally last week. The rear rod has been eaten lower down. This motor would be corroded solid. The cases are turning to powder. Sacrificial to the steel parts
1685672103981.png

1685672205549.png
 

JST

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2001
Location
St Louis
Beg to differ but possibly you need to look deeper into this ? This is not the case with either steel or lead, and as far as I know there are no other materials being touted for "preBomb" uses. Plus the atmospheric content of radioactive isotopes has gone way way down since they quit testing in air, to the point that "preBomb steel" is no longer a big deal except for very rare cases.

And I have no idea how you'd make steel without oxygen ? Is this a new process ?
No need for you to beg..... go ahead and differ.

Atmospheric content may be no issue. I doubt anything recently made can be found which does not have some content of bomb-related materials in it. And there are other materials as well that date metals etc.

You can tell the age of lead simply by checking the silver content. Old lead(170 years or so) has it, newer will not.

Old alloys will likely have unwanted materials in them due to poor purification or peculiarities of old processes. New will not have them.

Lots of different ways to check the date of materials, even if you discount the bomb products.

If pre-bomb steel is no longer important, why has the chinese government been desecrating war graves (sunken warships) to get it? Probably your information is faulty as to the reasons for wanting it no longer being important.

Who said anything about making steel w/o oxygen? Although the blast furnace part of the process is definitely not oxidizing, at least to iron. The whole idea there is to reduce the iron oxides.......

The basic oxygen process is definitely a user of large amounts of oxygen.
 

TheOldCar

Stainless
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Utah, USA
Just curious. If an XRF gun was held to the crank cases of a supposedly rare vintage motorcycle, would the XRF determine if the crank case composition was modern material (reproduction)?
Genuine crank cases are porous and also corrode into white powder. Old Indian cases are shocking.

Should auction houses be using XRF?

Photo just for laughs......
R.289bc6115336ee2f94bd9e94b26571e7
Is that one Jeff's old bike?
 

john.k

Diamond
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Brisbane Qld Australia
I have a 1930 Panther cranckcase corroded thru where its been in contact either with wet dirt ,or damp concrete........damp underhouse concrete ,often contminated with drainage water (soap) .........the Indian cases in the pics ,have IMHO been exhumed from a back yard tomb.......back in the day (1960s) you simply couldnt give away old bikes ,lots were sawn up and buried in the garden.......Whats on sale for stupi-bucks is the absolute junk of 1970s,fallen in to the hands of the young tricksters of the 2020.
 

john.k

Diamond
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Brisbane Qld Australia
!926 Scout bottom ends ......I once was given a small truck load of bottom end /gearbox units for these Scouts .......the cylinder barrels were the hard part to find ,the fins would corrode away in service .........literally couldnt give them away.......also dial back 60 years ,and youd find me at swaps with boxes of the little Schebler carbs off scouts ........used to sell em for $1.00 each ............I say this once .....I CANT BELIEVE THE MONEY BEING PAID FOR THIS. JUNK
 

80cui

Plastic
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Is that one Jeff's old bike?
yep. I just grabbed that off google as a rarity.
I have doubts about Cyclones and others.

Ive also heard of damp rot on crack cases and only seen pics, which appear to be slightly expanded.
 

TheOldCar

Stainless
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Location
Utah, USA
I remember seeing the completely disassembled motor on one of Curtis’ benches. It was quite a sight to see and story to hear.
Curtis (Jeff’s uncle) is the reason I got into machining.
 

sfriedberg

Diamond
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Location
Oregon, USA
I want to get back to the original question and Joe Michael's first comment. XRF guns as used in scrap yards are not even remotely precise enough to distinguish pre-atomic and post-atomic age materials. First off, they aren't even intended to distinguish isotopes of the same element, which is critical to the pre-/post-atomic analysis. Second, the typical handheld guns are not set up to recognize some important elements at all. Like Carbon. They cannot tell you if you are looking at 1018 or 1095, basically. Third, they are lucky to get +- 5% accuracy on the proportions of the elements they are calibrated for. So, essentially, they can tell you what general family of alloy you are dealing with, like 10xx vs 41xx vs 86xx for steels, or 60xx vs 70xx for aluminums. They are just not the right tool to do pre-/post-atomic analysis.
I cannot say if the XRF process, carried out in lab conditions with lab-grade gear, can provide the necessary data. But the handheld XRF guns aren't going to answer that question.
 

jim rozen

Diamond
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Location
peekskill, NY
XRF is indeed a pretty crude tool. For a better analysis you need something like rime-of-flight SIMS.



Yep, fancy stuff. Can determine isotope ratios.

Motorcycle museum in Newburgh NY, for Joe:

 

JST

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2001
Location
St Louis
I want to get back to the original question and Joe Michael's first comment. XRF guns as used in scrap yards are not even remotely precise enough to distinguish pre-atomic and post-atomic age materials. ............................... They are just not the right tool to do pre-/post-atomic analysis.
I cannot say if the XRF process, carried out in lab conditions with lab-grade gear, can provide the necessary data. But the handheld XRF guns aren't going to answer that question.
They don't do that sort of analysis at all, isotopes are in general chemically the same material as far as ordinary lab work and analysis.

They might find things like silver in the lead, etc. Depends on the accuracy the unit can do, and what percentage content is needed to detect that there is another material in the metal.

The blamed things are expensive enough, they ought to do all that and make your coffee as well. But it's a coarse survey tool, which suits a scrapyard etc better than a chemical lab.

Point really is not the "XRF" per se, but that yes, there are ways to determine modern frauds vs original items. Many are not remotely worth the cost of using them unless you are dealing with very rare and valuable items. Typically used with alleged "old master's" paintings etc that are in the several million buck and up range if genuine.

Maybe an XRF would find materials which should not be in, or should be in, alloys from a certain time period. I don't know the sensitivity they have, what percentage is needed to show up.

And there is always the issue of imperfect mixing and distribution of materials in old castings etc.
 








 
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