Advice adapting a bed turret to engine lathe

Mud · Sep 21, 2012

I'm hoping to find machinery guys who have dealt with this. I'm mounting this turret onto my 18" Polamco. It needs to raise about 1/8" more than where it is in this photo, the plywood shown is 1/2" thick.

I'm considering just 2 bars across the ways at the front and rear of the turret bed 4" or 6" wide, fitted to the tailstock ways, bolted and pinned to the turret and clamped to the ways the same way a tailstock is clamped. Second idea is 2 bars as described, but longer to clamp to the outside of the carriage ways The third alternative is a full size plate, 15'X17" and 1.5" thick machined to fit and to clamp to the outside of the carriage ways. The turret is 12" wide by 17" long, the ways are 14" across the outside.

Questions - 1 - Does a turret like this need to be supported full length to be sound or would the 2 bars work OK?
2 - Would mild steel be OK or do I need iron (like durabar) to prevent damage to the lathe ways when i move it?

BTW, anyone recognize the manufacturer of the turret? There's no ID mark on it.

S_W_Bausch · Sep 21, 2012

I like the full size plate idea, but in aluminum, so it (might) wear, instead of the ways (and be lighter).
Install some oiling ports, you can 'float' it when moving.

But no, I have no direct experience

adammil1 · Sep 21, 2012

I have been meaning to do that project myself one of these days, it has been a little while but from memory I bought the bed turret dirt cheap on eBay as someone broke part of the bottom casting where it bolted to the ways, since I would need to machine for a new size way anyhow it wasn't an issue for me. I started working on it but then higher priorities came up. One issue that I found with it is that unlike my tailstock this one will need to ride on the outer bed ways, not the inner tailstock ways. The challenge is once you take into account the wider carriage, plus the fact that on my machine I couldn't get the thing high enough to ride over the carriage you quickly realize that working with this thing on the machine is going to require tooling to stick out really far to clear the carriage, and just that alone started to dampen my enthusiam for the project. Looking at your photos you may have the same issue as I did there. I never did think of your 2 bars idea when it came to bolting it down but I too will be interested in seeing what others have to say on this. I was going to go with your second option till I started realizing I was really limiting myself with the carriage interference issue. Those that use these how do you tackle the problem? long tooling?

smdubovsky · Sep 21, 2012

Mud said:
I'm considering just 2 bars across the ways at the front and rear of the turret bed 4" or 6" wide, fitted to the tailstock ways, bolted and pinned to the turret and clamped to the ways the same way a tailstock is clamped.

I was going to do similar for the ??? turret I have for my Sheldon R15. Just the two bars at the ends on the tailstock ways w/ holddown clamps. Thats how the factory turret I have for my smaller 12" clausing works (it has a 'tab' that extends fore and aft of the casting that 4 bolts go down from the top for the clamps.) There are little to no side forces so I don't think it needs to sit on the wider outside ways. Plus, if the adapter is narrow enough, the carriage can still straddle it and cut to the end of the work too - just like the orig tailstock. It would be pretty limiting if the saddle couldn't get to the end of the work. I was going to use iron but that proj is still a ways off. I envisioned trying to scrape them to fit the ways to get the best coupling. Cut the flat side 'proud' and scrape it until the V blues in. Again, just what I was dreaming...

Mud · Sep 21, 2012

The ram just clears the cross slide while sitting on the plywood, by about .050. Luck! To clear the carriage bed, maybe i should cut the bottom front outer edges of the turret bed back about 6" so i can get it up close. (This must have been meant for a machine with a narrower/shorter carriage?) That would make a one piece adapter plate 11" long which should be stable enough for alignment if done right.

I don't expect to use knee tools or boring tools on this, just drills, taps etc and some die head threading, maybe small rotary broaching.

SVE Performance · Sep 21, 2012

Most lathes that had a turret installed at the factory use a production cross slide it does not have a compound . Yes they end up lower than a standard cross slide with compound. Bill

stephen thomas · Sep 21, 2012

Never actually done a turret, but have fit stuff like it, made way copies to adapt one component to another machine, and have worked with smaller Hardinge 2nd op turrets including alignment.

My take: if you need to keep the carriage and cross slide in front, make the turret adaptor fit the TS ways so the carriage wings at least can straddle it. Or mount it in front of the carriage, and use swing tools or cross slide tooling on the turret for things like facing operations, grooves, etc. As someone else noted, there is usually not much side force. Just needs enough clamp force to resist thrust under the biggest drills expected to be run, or a larger rotary broach.

2 bars cross ways is probably fine and would save some weight.
But I think it would be easier to make and align a single plate. Tending to use belt, suspenders, and safety pins, I would give strong thought to machining a top inverted way, or cutting a Vee-way to insert a ground square bar to align the turret by means of one of its integral Vee's on the top. Although, thinking further, if I did include the alignment Vee on top (whether bolt on square or machined in place), i might be more willing to go with the 2 plates. But I would machine them as one, and saw in half when completed, lol.

The added top Vee probably sounds like more trouble, but for me it would simplify the installation: make the bottom fit and align with the lathe, scraped to fit only as much as necessary to get a good bearing. Clamp in place. See if it is where prior plans and measurements indicated it should be. Now align the turret by scraping or grinding the top Vee &/or flat balance surface parallel to it. When aligned, clamp the 2 straps to the aligned turret, remove and pin and bolt.

From a cost consideration I don't think Durabar is necessary, A36 structural would be fine. But the CI sure does machine and scrape more nicely; and it might be a little more stable while machining.

Philabuster · Sep 21, 2012

Why go through the hassle when working turret lathes are being sold for almost scrap price? I bought two turret lathes in the last 3 months--15 hp Hitachi Seiki and a Tsugami (Hardinge HC copy) and like them both.

EDIT: There is a Warner Swasey on ebay for $500 buy it now in Harrisburg,PA. Might be worth looking at since it's practically in your back yard.

Warner swasey turret lathe | eBay

Mud · Sep 22, 2012

Philabuster said:
Why go through the hassle when working turret lathes are being sold for almost scrap price? I bought two turret lathes in the last 3 months--15 hp Hitachi Seiki and a Tsugami (Hardinge HC copy) and like them both.

EDIT: There is a Warner Swasey on ebay for $500 buy it now in Harrisburg,PA. Might be worth looking at since it's practically in your back yard.

Warner swasey turret lathe | eBay

Because: 1, None of the cheap turret lathes I've seen lately will do the quality of work I need. 2. I don't need another hunk of iron taking up space in my crowded shop. 3, Between the cost of this brand new turret and the material I need to mount it I'll have less than the price of a running turret lathe at scrap price much less the moving cost, even doing it myself. 4, I'll have less effort and time in this job than I'll have in a used turret lathe getting it in, getting it clean enough to use, wiring it and fixing whatever it needs to run even minimally.

I do have a beautiful W&S #3. I bought it many years ago, it's ex-navy and in like new condition mechanically. We stripped it to the bed casting, painted it and reassembled it with care. I have just about every accessory W&S made for it, in multiples, plus additions we've done here, and lots of tooling. We used it for production until I bought my first turning center and when it suits, I use it. However, it does not go down to 18 RPM. It does not go up to 1600 RPM. It does not have as many speeds in between. It does not have as many feed selections. It does not have a Turnvision .00005 DRO. It does not have a brand new Pratt Burnerd adjust-tru chuck. It does not have a 4 jaw chuck. It does not have threading. It does not have the power of this Polamco. It does not have a spindle stop. This lathe is my go to machine for one off parts and I want a bed turret on it for my convenience. I'd be just as happy with just a capstan style tailstock but that's not likely to appear, and I don't want to build one, so I'm mounting this turret.

Mud · Sep 22, 2012

stephen thomas said:
Never actually done a turret, but have fit stuff like it, made way copies to adapt one component to another machine, and have worked with smaller Hardinge 2nd op turrets including alignment.

My take: if you need to keep the carriage and cross slide in front, make the turret adaptor fit the TS ways so the carriage wings at least can straddle it. Or mount it in front of the carriage, and use swing tools or cross slide tooling on the turret for things like facing operations, grooves, etc. As someone else noted, there is usually not much side force. Just needs enough clamp force to resist thrust under the biggest drills expected to be run, or a larger rotary broach.

2 bars cross ways is probably fine and would save some weight.
But I think it would be easier to make and align a single plate. Tending to use belt, suspenders, and safety pins, I would give strong thought to machining a top inverted way, or cutting a Vee-way to insert a ground square bar to align the turret by means of one of its integral Vee's on the top. Although, thinking further, if I did include the alignment Vee on top (whether bolt on square or machined in place), i might be more willing to go with the 2 plates. But I would machine them as one, and saw in half when completed, lol.

The added top Vee probably sounds like more trouble, but for me it would simplify the installation: make the bottom fit and align with the lathe, scraped to fit only as much as necessary to get a good bearing. Clamp in place. See if it is where prior plans and measurements indicated it should be. Now align the turret by scraping or grinding the top Vee &/or flat balance surface parallel to it. When aligned, clamp the 2 straps to the aligned turret, remove and pin and bolt.

From a cost consideration I don't think Durabar is necessary, A36 structural would be fine. But the CI sure does machine and scrape more nicely; and it might be a little more stable while machining.

Awesome, Stephen, thank you, that's what I needed. I'll think about this while I'm measuring. I discovered there's a piece of linkage that protrudes below the ram when it's extended that will limit the ram to about 4" travel over top the cross slide, but I believe that will be plenty to reach the work. Might have to put a spot drill in a big chuck to reach out far enough. I have a 17" colchester clone a few steps away and it has maybe 1/2" more clearance over the cross slide so that's a possibility too but I'd rather have it on this lathe. Since the turret holes have never been bored I could also raise the turret attachment a bit and lower the holes when I finish bore them. This thing must weigh close to 300 lbs, I need more hands to safely move it around to take measurements than I have on a saturday

S_W_Bausch · Sep 22, 2012

Nobody has mentioned this, but when I look at the enlarged photo, I notice something that resembles a crack:

Sorry, had to ask

Mud · Sep 22, 2012

Paint scratch

stephen thomas · Sep 22, 2012

Since the turret holes have never been bored....

Awesome! Takes out some of my set up reservations. I was "assuming" need to work to +/- 1/2 thou or better in all planes when mounting this. Parallelism (slideways to spindle axis vertical and horizontal) is still critical, but it sounds like the off set sideways or vertically is wide open. So you can work to perfect alignments and to some extent let the final dimensions fall where they may.

smt

smt

Ray Behner · Sep 22, 2012

Hi Mud,
I found an old Cinci 12" turret that I adapted to my Sheldon. I milled the bottom flat and v-grooved an al. plate the correct thickness. Dialing in a bar in the turret with the carriage got her pretty close. Clamped it together and pinned it. Aluminum may not be the best for the wear factor, but it's been working for many years.

MACHINE SHOP :: trt2_zps7f12ff43.jpg picture by rbehner - Photobucket

Mud · Sep 22, 2012

Very helpful Ray, thanks.

What digital scale are you using there?

Ray Behner · Sep 22, 2012

Mud,
That's just an El Cheapo Enterprises Ltd. Scales and Fill Dirt Co. job. 12" length.
I made two al. arms and pocketed the turret a bit to hold them tight.

Greg Menke · Sep 22, 2012

Looks very like (exactly like as I recall) like a Logan turret for their 14" swing machines. Had one for a while but parted the machine (shipped the turret to another Logan owner on PM). Logan does sell a pdf which shows all their machines, along with the turret assembly drawing and parts list, and briefly discusses related options- could have different diameter of turret bores mostly. I'd be happy to put a couple jpegs up of the turret related material. Logan may have some parts. If you can find part #'s anywhere we could see if they match Logan's.

Greg

adama · Sep 22, 2012

I would not overly worry if it does not clear the cross slide. Mine does, but it ends up so damn crowded in there on a 11" lathe i generally try and do the turning as one op then drill - threading as a second op. Mind you i run a chuck small enough to park the cross slide under + The Harrison has a L00 spindle and that sticks the chuck out a fair way any how :-) A bigger lathe though and there would be a lot more room in general.

As was told to me, adding a turret to a engine lathe won't make it a real turret lathe, but it sure as hell will speed a lot of things along. And for certain it beats the hell out of one of those Morse taper tail stock mounted turrets! Mine spends about 95% of its time on the lathe, position 1 is a stop, 2, a 10mm spot drill, 3 & 4 are both ER32 collet chucks and the other two holes either have drill bits or die heads mounted most of the time. Its a bit more faffing with col lets to change drills - taps. But i do a lot of 2 - 10 bit runs. Hence indexing to the next station soon pays of in time saving compared with even using a key less drill chuck in the tail stock. What's more its a lot easier to power tap with, you can really feel what's going on a lot better.

S_W_Bausch · Sep 22, 2012

Greg Menke said:
Looks very like (exactly like as I recall) like a Logan turret for their 14" swing machines. Had one for a while but parted the machine (shipped the turret to another Logan owner on PM). Logan does sell a pdf which shows all their machines, along with the turret assembly drawing and parts list, and briefly discusses related options- could have different diameter of turret bores mostly. I'd be happy to put a couple jpegs up of the turret related material. Logan may have some parts. If you can find part #'s anywhere we could see if they match Logan's.

Greg

Ironman posted about his 14" in a "Show Us Your Logan" thread. He doesn't post much, but his profile indicates he visited the site 24 hours ago.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/show-us-your-logan-192652/#post1238154

In that thread, "6510" is given as the lathe's model number (but 6530 may be correct), Scott Logan is recommended as a GoTo expert http://www.lathe.com/ I like that URL... must have been one of those "early adopters" , perhaps a close friend of Al Gore

The specs to the turret is found in http://www.lathe.com/catalogs/Logan Lathe Catalog LS-963.pdf

And this image is attributed to Greg Menke:

moonlight machine · Sep 23, 2012

I Put a Hardinge turret on my old SB 16. I made the adapter / riser block out of aluminum. It sets on the tail stock ways. It is full length, its an easy job...........

Advice adapting a bed turret to engine lathe

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